Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:50 pm

Is there striking in wrestling or BJJ competition
Obviously not after seeing the 5 ways to escape a collar lock
I read recently about the yang family saying
No fighting within the school and no pushing outside the school
Or something to that effect
Back in the 70's I was seen in the company of two well known international wrestlers
The famous person who saw me was arranging a pushing competition
A number of his students would regularly come and watch my classes
They asked me about my intentions
I told them I was training them for their teachers competition
The contest was called off
Truth is I just happened to know them and was just having a chat
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:37 pm

We should not look at the difference but the similarity instead. Taiji has arm drag too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R177D1U ... e=youtu.be
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby GrahamB on Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:07 pm

At this point, I have concluded that nobody is going to prove me wrong.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:17 pm

"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby GrahamB on Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:21 pm

ha ha
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:30 pm

GrahamB wrote:At this point, I have concluded that nobody is going to prove me wrong.

You are 100% right.

Taiji PH = wrestling without the leg skill.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby Subitai on Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:14 pm

Steve James wrote:Well, when push hands is turned into a competition, the goal is winning in any way that is allowed. That could be wrestling or striking. It's not going to look like what people expect of tcc.

However, that doesn't mean that tcc skills can't be used in grappling or striking.


Not trying to change your mind Graham because I pretty much agree with you that majority of the best stuff is taken out in competition.
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I just wanted to +1 this post above by Steve James (except for the "striking" mention), especially his last sentence it's true.
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Yeah, when they limit the rules to say: "No Sweeping, No Locking, No Striking (obviously)...and often NO sustained for long GRABBING! (ie. they want the grabbs to be short and not sustained too long) it really takes allot away from what you can do...allot of the cool stuff imo. Certainly what I think I'm personally best at but cannot use.

However on the flip side, the rules apply for both not just one so it's fair. Also as Steve James said, "...that doesn't mean that tcc skills can't be used in grappling..."

Just a Note: Three basic attributes...Speed, Strength and Skill, each can be a 1/3 of the overall picture. In theory, if you have enough SKILL...you can overcome someone who has more strength and speed. Not to mention, a big size / weight difference also alters the factors.
* When you encounter massive strength or speed, which usually is not seen in typical push hands circles (however WILL OCCUR in competition)... It takes skill in and of it self to sense and respond to massive and aggressive rapid changes. So I will say that yes, there is SOME Taiji skills happening. They may be simple or rudimentary but often times in fighting...that is what works. Surely not the more complicated concepts. Those are usually left to fantasy and its the reason why you would not see so called "high level chi sinking to the dan tien" methods work (if at a rare .009% at all) in MMA competition.


Having recently competed myself vs some very good competitors I can attest very much that the other part of what Steve James said, i.e. "when push hands is turned into a competition, the goal is winning in any..." is important because it obviously changes the game.

* when you are limited by the rules of competition you cannot risk trying to LOOK like Taiji or trying to divert 1000lbs with just 4 ounces.
= Result could be a simple mistake and you could get DOWN in points...therefore the motivation is to win.
= Thus loose very easily and in our video Taiji (Martial arts)world...all someone has to do it fail or loose once and it's viewed far too negatively.


I recall awhile back there were some comments about "Richard Clear". A video of him on FB on a stage doing what seemed like a PH competition, he didn't fair too well. In hindsight, what I would say about it now is that it doesn't make him a phony...perhaps he was just woefully unprepared or was misguided. I'm willing to give people the benefit of doubt until I can actually touch hands with them.
Unless someone has done it for themselves...I don't think they can make comments about it. But people are people and no matter what, there will always be keyboard warriors who can't do it themselves making snap judgments. Suks.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:28 pm

Having recently competed myself vs some very good competitors I can attest very much that the other part of what Steve James said, i.e. "when push hands is turned into a competition, the goal is winning in any..." is important because it obviously changes the game.


The masters of old didnt use push hands to prove skill sets...
Making it into a competition depends a lot on the judges and their skill level as to the level of the event itself.


Have judged ph events in the South East, and some in CA helping some friends run events....competed once in a national reated event
lost the event, the winner told me after "your the only one here who knows what ph is about"

which at the time I didn't understand but can now.

In CA when we judged we would take the winners and losers and push with them allowing them to feel a different way of approaching it.
Used to go to the local ph places but stopped after awhile, waste of time IMO.

Claim no skill in ph....

The rule sets are set up to highlight specific skill sets that are said to be very unique to taiji . Judges I used to work with often talked about the current state of ph and what they could do to change the rule sets that would force people only to use taiji skill sets, and show skill sets that only one who practiced in taiji would be able to develop or use..... A conclusion was never reached due to the rational that some used for the events in the first place...

" sticking, adhering, connecting, and following"

Crashing in, collapsing, coming away, and resistance will lose in a fight, and so they are called mistakes. If you neglect sticking, adhering, connecting, and following, you will not be able to achieve moving with awareness. And if you are not aware of yourself, how will you be able to know your opponent?

Therefore when fighting, do not use crashing in, collapsing, coming away, or resistance, thereby opposing the opponent, instead use sticking, adhering, connecting, and following, thereby awaiting the opponent.
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/


Those with the higher level skill sets normally don't compete....they fight, or used to.
PH IMO was really one of the main causes for the art being deconstructed

This may be hard to understand for most...
The competitions build many bad habits and skill sets used to win the competitions,
which might be good for the competitions but not much good for anything else.

Which is why those who understand it, don't compete in them....

I think push hands competitions are wrestling competitions with all the fun moves taken out.

Prove me wrong.



Its not wrestling, why would one look for something in it, that it is not?
If it was wrestling or any kind of grappling as some suggest or feel it is
one would expect the best grapplers to come from taiji back grounds...

or do well when contested with grapplers....
Most often they do not the reverse is true
the grapplers are able to take advantages of the taiji practitioners
because, they are not grapplers..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ttVm3Gig1E
Something that ph skill set should teach, fist contact
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:52 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby Subitai on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:03 pm

Ok Windwalker...

I'm not trying to be a thorn in your side but are you trying to confuse me? It's like you're talking about apples vs oranges:

Apples:
+ the winner told me after "your the only one here who knows what ph is about"
+ Have judged ph events in the South East, and some in CA helping some friends run events

= Both of which suggest that you know what you're talking about when it comes to PH.

Oranges:
- competed once in a national reated event lost the event
- Claim no skill in ph....

= Logically, if you haven't won an event and you claim no skill in PH...then how is your opinion to be taken seriously?
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2 vs 2

So which is it, do you feel confident and experienced enough to make an informed decision that I could view you as a reference or not?

I suspect that you're being very Chinese and being humble but I'd prefer you be a little more assertive and just say..."believe me I know what I'm talking about"
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Otherwise, NOW I'll respond to your post.

The masters of old didnt use push hands to prove skill sets...


= When it comes to people referencing old masters I get very skeptical. You put a weapon in my hand and I could defeat 10 Chinese peasant farmers using hit and run tactics and in 100 years my fame would be legendary. But farmers still suk.

Anyone ever see the supposed "KF Masters" fighting eachother on rooftops in black and white footage?

Believe me, I love CMA...I am a practitioner myself...but even I'm a realist.

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Its not wrestling, why would one look for something in it, that it is not?
If it was wrestling or any kind of grappling as some suggest or feel it is
one would expect the best grapplers to come from taiji back grounds...

or do well when contested with grapplers....
Most often they do not the reverse is true
the grapplers are able to take advantages of the taiji practitioners
because, they are not grapplers..



= 1st paragraph, Think about what you just said, I disagree... one would expect the best grapplers to come from Wrestling and grappling back grounds and NOT from Taiji!!!

* Just stating that I don't disagree with Grahams OP comment about "Wrestling" at all. His wrestling comment is correct because allot of what is done could easily transfer into Greco Roman wrestling (stand up)...Having done both and can see the parallels and why he thought that.

= 2nd, dude you prove my points:

1) Grapplers are able to take advantage of Taiji practioners because they(ie TC guys) often don't train SPEED and STRENGTH in realistic enough environments. But grapplers train exactly how they will combat. TC guys often spend far too much time trying skill only and to achieve mythical levels of Sinking the Chi for defense.

It suks because I'm also a TC player and at my heart I strive to get to the highest levels just as we all should.

*** What do we all think are High Levels? That should be a entirely separate topic IMO.
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Those with the higher level skill sets normally don't compete....they fight, or used to.


= Ok cool, I'm going to be assertive right here and say...Yeah I fought MMA and won, I fought San shou and won, I wrestled and won and I've also done PH and won and I've also judged. All of these experiences collectively help me to form what I would hope to be an informed opinion. Basically, If I have not achieved it, I have no right to speak critically about it.

It sounds like ego and it is, sorry but if I were a novice and reading a forum who would I listen to?

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm going after you...and I apologize that it sounds that way. I deserve what you want to say in return...go ahead slam me.
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Lastly its the local politics here in the USA that has gotten me frustrated....sorry.
If I had to explain what has gotten into me tonight mabe it's my frustration with seeing Certain Teachers do bullshit woo woo demos and people just falling head over heals in love with them. Despite, those "SAID" teachers: (and we know who they are) not having any kind of fight record or much experience beyond their own students.

I liken the same parallel with these idiots in the USA that think that Trump is a good guy. How can they not see a CON MAN...all it takes is the tiniest bit of research to see how bad he really is. Instead, they prefer to live in fantasy land.
Last edited by Subitai on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby windwalker on Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:23 am

Subitai wrote:Ok Windwalker...

I'm not trying to be a thorn in your side but are you trying to confuse me? It's like you're talking about apples vs oranges:

Apples:
+ the winner told me after "your the only one here who knows what ph is about"
+ Have judged ph events in the South East, and some in CA helping some friends run events


= Both of which suggest that you know what you're talking about when it comes to PH.

Oranges:
- competed once in a national reated event lost the event
It was a nationally rated aau event hosted by Phillip Star
http://oneprincipleway.blogspot.com

It was kind of funny as there was a local Kuntao group that competed and won most of the ph events...while all the taiji guys lost...
The guy I matched with felt that my skill set was quite different then all the others even though he won the match. He understood what taiji was supposed to be about and felt it in me even if my skill was not enough for the event.


- Claim no skill in ph....I claim no skill, others say I have skill its not something I
support as an activity by itself nor train to do, its a limited tool used in understanding and developing certain skill sets.

Have met with people in China, HK, Taiwan, and other parts in the US...who engage in this...For me at this point having reached an understanding I no longer feel its that useful as taught and practiced by many but understand why and what they do it for.

As such, some seek me out to help them with something they do, that I no longer find useful


= Logically, if you haven't won an event and you claim no skill in PH...then how is your opinion to be taken seriously?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 vs 2

So which is it, do you feel confident and experienced enough to make an informed decision that I could view you as a reference or not?

It's up to you, I have confidence in knowing what I know, and what I do not with direct experience that allows me to know..

whether one can use me as a reference point kinda depends on whether they'er looking for the same things.


I suspect that you're being very Chinese and being humble but I'd prefer you be a little more assertive and just say..."believe me I know what I'm talking about"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Otherwise, NOW I'll respond to your post.

The masters of old didnt use push hands to prove skill sets...


= When it comes to people referencing old masters I get very skeptical. You put a weapon in my hand and I could defeat 10 Chinese peasant farmers using hit and run tactics and in 100 years my fame would be legendary. But farmers still suk.

Anyone ever see the supposed "KF Masters" fighting each other on rooftops in black and white footage?


Believe me, I love CMA...I am a practitioner myself...but even I'm a realist.

knew some who did fight / train on the roof tops.

"A realist" good then you should understand that the point was to be so good at what ever style/skill
that it would tend to make any encounter unequal, not as in the events of today where many aspects are matched to include skill level
so that things are equal....

For example, tongbei is different than regular kung fu. It’s the way they use the power, the way they deliver momentum and striking force. That’s what makes it outstanding. I don’t say that these new styles are bad kung fu or anything like that. I always say ‘Whatever you do, I don’t want. Whatever I do and you don’t know – that’s how we win. https://www.usadojo.com/keeping-kung-fu ... vid-chin/'


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not wrestling, why would one look for something in it, that it is not?
If it was wrestling or any kind of grappling as some suggest or feel it is
one would expect the best grapplers to come from taiji back grounds...

or do well when contested with grapplers....
Most often they do not the reverse is true
the grapplers are able to take advantages of the taiji practitioners
because, they are not grapplers..



= 1st paragraph, Think about what you just said, I disagree... one would expect the best grapplers to come from Wrestling and grappling back grounds and NOT from Taiji!!!

* Just stating that I don't disagree with Grahams OP comment about "Wrestling" at all. His wrestling comment is correct because allot of what is done could easily transfer into Greco Roman wrestling (stand up)...Having done both and can see the parallels and why he thought that.

= 2nd, dude you prove my points:

1) Grapplers are able to take advantage of Taiji practioners because they(ie TC guys) often don't train SPEED and STRENGTH in realistic enough environments. But grapplers train exactly how they will combat. TC guys often spend far too much time trying skill only and to achieve mythical levels of Sinking the Chi for defense.

Our experiences seem to be different, would disagree,

With those that I've met who grappled or played judo...
They couldn't do much....Their sensitivity is based on something a little different. Interesting enough I have worked with
Japanese judo exponents from Japan at a Japanese company I used to work for long ago...When they found out I played taiji each wanted to try
and then asked me to teach them taiji.

In looking at the many clips of some taiji teachers who have played with wrestlers or grapplers,,
I almost always wonder about their taiji skill level...


It suks because I'm also a TC player and at my heart I strive to get to the highest levels just as we all should.

One might ask what makes one a taiji player...many CMA teachers teach taiji as an adjunct to what they do feeling
they know it which accounts for some of the confusion as they use other skill sets developed to use it....
Thinking this is the way it works.


*** What do we all think are High Levels? That should be a entirely separate topic IMO.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those with the higher level skill sets normally don't compete....they fight, or used to.


= Ok cool, I'm going to be assertive right here and say...Yeah I fought MMA and won, I fought San shou and won, I wrestled and won and I've also done PH and won and I've also judged. All of these experiences collectively help me to form what I would hope to be an informed opinion. Basically, If I have not achieved it, I have no right to speak critically about it.


It sounds like ego and it is, sorry but if I were a novice and reading a forum who would I listen to?

The one who's experiences matched what one was looking for. If winning contest is what one is looking for then of course those who've competed in them would be the one with experiences in that. One the other hand this does not preclude those like myself who never felt the need to compete but have engaged with many and those that have.

Regarding who has the right to say what,,,one could also use this to point out that unless one could do the woo woo stuff they have no right to speak critically of it. But many do


I'm sorry if it seems like I'm going after you...and I apologize that it sounds that way. I deserve what you want to say in return...go ahead slam me.

I just take it as view points shared...In many aspects we probably agree more then it would seem, in others not.
--------------------------------------------------
Lastly its the local politics here in the USA that has gotten me frustrated....sorry.
If I had to explain what has gotten into me tonight mabe it's my frustration with seeing Certain Teachers do bullshit woo woo demos and people just falling head over heals in love with them. Despite, those "SAID" teachers: (and we know who they are) not having any kind of fight record or much experience beyond their own students.

Kindas depends if one can do what some call the woo, woo stuff. I can, and have looked at this in depth for awhile to the point of focusing on it exclusively for some 10yrs. I come from a back ground where what was trained had to be functional...which colors my whole view on CMA...My own research over, now returned to my beginning only with what some might call the woo woo stuff incorporated.
I don't call it woo woo, applied physics would be better way to look at it,,,,


I liken the same parallel with these idiots in the USA that think that Trump is a good guy. How can they not see a CON MAN...all it takes is the tiniest bit of research to see how bad he really is. Instead, they prefer to live in fantasy land.


To bad you brought politics into it, insulting those who might have a different view point....

Regardless, CMA is evolving coming from a very different culture the why, what has changed with the times....
Of the teachers I've known in the past many tried to bring it into the present, with out to much modification feeling to do so
one would lose the essence of the past....Something that I feel one needs to work out for themselves.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:45 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby cloudz on Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:54 am

Go and Compete at the British Open in April/ moving step please.
You can use leg grabs trips/ sweeps.
THEN YOU can speak whether it was fun for you or not.

What you're asking is a category error or hadn't you even noticed. Talking about "proof" where an experience involved.
I would say you are being a shit strirrer for you own amusements.
It's not big or clever really.

I can honestly say most of this is all bullshit as usual.
Yes they could be looser, yes there are too many comps that stay too restricted.
They are not all like that or all bad.

In my first comp at British Open I was sent flying it was absolutely fucking spectacular to be honest.
Rare perhaps but damn I did go flying through the air!

It's a shame because of all people posting here you actually are lucky to have access to the least restrictive rulesets.
London, British and Euros. I feel sorry for you Americans as your comps are just mostly SHIT. Sorry.

You have done 1 BJJ comp G, maybe it's about time you did a taiji grappling comp so you can actually speak from real experience of taking part.
If you come back and say you know what I had no fun, then I can at least take you seriously.
Otherwise this is just pointless trolling and little more. Heck in the process you might actually improve on some techniques, attributes and skills that are involved..

No leg skill my fuckin ass!
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:07 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby cloudz on Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:27 am

quick search, most recent hit. rulesets links are there I believe for uk, ireland, europe
all searchable for those that are really interested in knowing or experiencing it.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... f5#p372873
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby Steve James on Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:19 am

From the 2018 rules.

Permitted techniques

Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Cai, Lie, Kao & Zhou (forearm only not point of elbow).

No points are awarded if the opponent is brought off balance with other techniques.



Offences

In all pushing hands events, it is not permitted to:

• Attack the crotch, or hit the head, neck or throat.
• Attack with the elbow, knee or stretched fingers (knife hand).
• Punch, kick, bite, spit, pull hair or clothing.
• Apply a sustained lock to a joint for any period of time or with the use of force or in any way except as transition through a recognised technique
• Precede a push with a blow or thump.
• Grasp or pick up the legs.
• Attack the joints.
• Kick
• Use over head or back throws.
• Attack after the referee has stopped the match.
• Offer dissent with or without rough language.
• Purposely press on the breasts (ladies).

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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby Steve James on Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:27 am

I don't know the rule set here, but it's from Oxford. My question would be how does one judge whether the players are using peng, lu, ji, an, etc? And, if so, if a greco-roman match were put up, could those energies/techniques be identified there?

Graham's point, iinm, was that phs comps look like wrestling.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf4lVSemcAg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK6EvnFAnfM
Last edited by Steve James on Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby Steve James on Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:53 am

Here's an interesting Greco - Roman match that illustrates several issues from some other threads. But, I'm curious whether the traditional tcc energies could be identified. I'd bet that it wouldn't make any difference in a match against these guys --at least I'd be kidding myself. The only thing that interests me here is how I could identify (or differentiate) the tcc energies in examples like this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ3brKOO4G4
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