Tajiquan by the numbers!

[origami_itto]

0 - Wuji
1 - Taiji
2 - Yin and Yang
3 - Three Circles
4 - Stick, Adhere, Join, Follow
5 - Five Steps
6 - Six Harmonies
7 - Seven Stars
8 - Eight Gates
9 - Nine Palaces
10 - Ten Essential Points
11 - Ten Thousand Things
(Just something dumb I thought of on the way home from push hands)

[everything]

I like it. Somehow have to throw in the 10,000 things.

[origami_itto]

I like it. Somehow have to throw in the 10,000 things.

Let's make that 11!

[cloudz]

How can you leave out the 12 days of Xmas!
Unbelievable.

[Yeung]

4 should be touch, join, stick, follow

Zhan 沾 moisten, wet, soak; touch
Lian 連 join, connect; continuous; even
Nian 黏 stick to; glutinous, sticky; glue
Sui 隨 follow, listen to, submit; to accompany; subsequently, then

Stick and adhere are very similar in meaning, but 4 should express the idea of touching is only to join or connected to the opponent but it is sticking that enables following.

[Yeung]

I am not sure about wuji as 0; it can mean infinity or not knowing.

[GrahamB]

11 No-touch masters no-touching
12 Kodo Drummers drumming
13 Systema soldiers falling over
14 BJJ butt scooters scooting
15 Push hands champions moving their foot slightly
16 RSF posters BECAUSE SOMETHING IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET
17 MMA vs Tai Chi masters KOs
18 Air punchers, punching air
19 1 hour minimum Zhan Zhuangers
20 ritual Taoist magic healing amulets
21 Adam Mizners being correct, not incorect


.... and a Tai Bird in a Durian tree.

[middleway]

11 No-touch masters no-touching
12 Kodo Drummers drumming
13 Systema soldiers falling over
14 BJJ butt scooters scooting
15 Push hands champions moving their foot slightly
16 RSF posters BECAUSE SOMETHING IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET
17 MMA vs Tai Chi masters KOs
18 Air punchers, punching air
19 1 hour minimum Zhan Zhuangers
20 ritual Taoist magic healing amulets
21 Adam Mizners being correct, not incorect


.... and a Tai Bird in a Durian tree.

HAHA ... Bravo sir, Bravo.

[cloudz]

nice one

[origami_itto]

4 should be touch, join, stick, follow

Zhan 沾 moisten, wet, soak; touch
Lian 連 join, connect; continuous; even
Nian 黏 stick to; glutinous, sticky; glue
Sui 隨 follow, listen to, submit; to accompany; subsequently, then

Stick and adhere are very similar in meaning, but 4 should express the idea of touching is only to join or connected to the opponent but it is sticking that enables following.

It seems like everyone has their own version. CMC even replaces nian with t'ieh. He also explains them as basically forward backward and up down. I'm not a huge fan of his explanation.

a. To Adhere and lift - palm down (chan)
b. To join - palm up (lien)
c. To adhere horizontally (t'ieh)
d. to attach from the rear (sui)
a and b are up and down movements, c and d are backward, forward and lateral movements.

My favorite comes from here Zhan, Nian, Lian, Sui: Four Key Skills for Pushing Hands and Fighting
Basically boils it down to these (I find it easier to explain backwards)

Sui/Follow - evading the partner's conscious movement/attack
Lian/Join - following the opponent's movements to stay connected to their mass without causing any trouble for them
Nian/Adhere - like join but with the intent to cause trouble for the opponent
Zhan/Stick - following the opponent's unconscious movements to keep them stuck to you and in trouble/unable to counter our attack

[marvin8]

4 should be touch, join, stick, follow

Zhan 沾 moisten, wet, soak; touch
Lian 連 join, connect; continuous; even
Nian 黏 stick to; glutinous, sticky; glue
Sui 隨 follow, listen to, submit; to accompany; subsequently, then

Stick and adhere are very similar in meaning, but 4 should express the idea of touching is only to join or connected to the opponent but it is sticking that enables following.

It seems like everyone has their own version. CMC even replaces nian with t'ieh. He also explains them as basically forward backward and up down. I'm not a huge fan of his explanation.

a. To Adhere and lift - palm down (chan)
b. To join - palm up (lien)
c. To adhere horizontally (t'ieh)
d. to attach from the rear (sui)
a and b are up and down movements, c and d are backward, forward and lateral movements.

My favorite comes from here Zhan, Nian, Lian, Sui: Four Key Skills for Pushing Hands and Fighting
Basically boils it down to these (I find it easier to explain backwards)

Sui/Follow - evading the partner's conscious movement/attack
Lian/Join - following the opponent's movements to stay connected to their mass without causing any trouble for them
Nian/Adhere - like join but with the intent to cause trouble for the opponent
Zhan/Stick - following the opponent's unconscious movements to keep them stuck to you and in trouble/unable to counter our attack

A part of that process should be timing.

Excerpt from "Tai Chi Chuan Martial Applications ADVANCED YANG STYLE:"

Below we will present a song (adage) that discusses and analyzes attack timing. We hope this song will give you a fairly good idea of timing in a fight.



Generally speaking, when your enemy intends to attack you, he must generate his attacking yi first. His qi is also generated at this time, but it does not yet show in his postures. A high-level martial artist will be able to sense his opponent’s intention through the expression on his face or even by sensing his qi. When the opponent’s yi has grown to a certain level, his jing will start to grow. When his yi has reached the maximum, his jing will still be growing. When his jing has reached its maximum, his yi has usually started to withdraw, which causes his jing to stop and start to withdraw as well. Remember: yi comes first, then qi. This qi will then support the jing so that it reaches its maximum. Before jing reaches its maximum, the yi has already been there. When jing reaches its maximum, yi has already started to withdraw. If you can analyze the timing following this rule, you will be able to catch the meaning of the following song.

Attack Timing Strategy 攻時略
Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming 楊俊敏

[When] enemy’s attacking yi is forming and his posture has not yet shown, I suddenly attack and disturb his yi and stop the forming of his posture. [This] is reaching “enlightenment.” [This timing] is the best among the best strategies.

敵擊意己孕, 而勢未現, 我驟然反攻以亂其意, 挫其勢之孕形, 是為通乎神明, 乃為上上策。

Remember: yi is always ahead of qi, and where the yi is, there is also the qi. When you have developed your qi, you can use it to support your jing as you express it through your posture. Therefore, when you sense the enemy’s qi, it means that his yi is forming, and his qi is not yet strong enough to support jing. If you attack just when you sense his intention and qi, you can disturb the forming of his yi and qi and put him into a passive, disadvantageous situation. It takes a great deal of experience to sense the opponent’s intention. This is one of the timings used for “cold jing” (leng jing, 冷勁). When you reach this stage, you have reached “enlightenment.” Naturally, this is the best among the best timings in attacking the enemy.

[When] the enemy’s attacking yi shows, and his jing is about to emit but hasn’t yet, I borrow this opportunity to stop [his attack] and interrupt his yi and posture. [It is] normally among the best strategies.

敵擊意己現, 而勁將出未出, 我借此機, 阻其意, 其勢, 乃上平策。

When the enemy’s yi is about complete, his qi has been generated and is ready to support jing. If I take this time to interrupt his yi and stop his jing, the jing he generated will bounce back to him. Because his yi is almost complete, it is totally concentrated on attacking, and he will not be able to instantly stop his attacking yi and withdraw his qi and jing. His jing will therefore be bounced back. This is the first timing of borrowing jing.

[When] the enemy’s attacking yi is completed and jing has been emitted, I must first stop his [attacking] posture [and] then counterattack. [This is] the most common strategy.

敵攻意已成, 勢亦已發, 我必先阻其勢而反擊, 乃平策。

When the enemy’s yi is completed and his jing is emitted, I must block or avoid his attack first, and then counterattack. This timing is a common one that most of the martial artists can do.

[When] the enemy’s attacking yi is weakening and his attacking posture is strongest, I borrow his jing and reverse [the situation] to check his posture. [This is] the difficult one of the best strategies.

敵攻意漸蹶, 攻勢正盛, 我借其勁而反挫其勢, 是為上難策。

When the enemy’s jing has reached its maximum, his attacking yi will be weakening. However, at this time, his jing will be the strongest. If I know how to borrow his jing at this moment, I will be able to bounce him away. This is the more difficult level of borrowing jing.

[When] the enemy’s attacking yi is ended and his defensive yi is about to generate,
his posture moves back for defense, I borrow this opportunity and follow his
posture and attack. [It is] the easiest one of the best strategies.

敵攻意己盡, 守意將生, 勢正回守, 我借此機而反攻, 是為上易策。

When the enemy’s attacking yi is ended and his yi is about to withdraw, you should take this opportunity and attack in along his extended limb before he withdraws it. When his yi is about to withdraw, his defensive capability is weak, and vital areas are exposed because his arm is extended. If you take this moment to attack just as he is starting to withdraw, you will certainly get him unless he is very good in sticking hands.

[origami_itto]

A part of that process should be timing.

I don't see that as a specific process. They're just four kinds of following that support or assist other techniques. Hua-Na-Fa is the "process", and was a strong contender for number 3 on the list there but I'd just watched a great video on the circles so they won (for the moment).

Timing is something I hadn't considered specifically when going through the classics. Outside of starting last and arriving first, which is the main idea of Dr Yang's essay, there's also that letting the attack spend itself and then counterattacking he speaks of as being "common"... I can't really think of anything that speaks to it directly. I should look into that.

[marvin8]

A part of that process should be timing.

I don't see that as a specific process. They're just four kinds of following that support or assist other techniques. Hua-Na-Fa is the "process", and was a strong contender for number 3 on the list there but I'd just watched a great video on the circles so they won (for the moment).

Timing is something I hadn't considered specifically when going through the classics. Outside of starting last and arriving first, which is the main idea of Dr Yang's essay, there's also that letting the attack spend itself and then counterattacking he speaks of as being "common"... I can't really think of anything that speaks to it directly. I should look into that.

I don't either. I wrote "part," not a numbered step. But, timing is included in the process (whether one uses it or not), when to go to the next step.

[origami_itto]

A part of that process should be timing.

I don't see that as a specific process. They're just four kinds of following that support or assist other techniques. Hua-Na-Fa is the "process", and was a strong contender for number 3 on the list there but I'd just watched a great video on the circles so they won (for the moment).

Timing is something I hadn't considered specifically when going through the classics. Outside of starting last and arriving first, which is the main idea of Dr Yang's essay, there's also that letting the attack spend itself and then counterattacking he speaks of as being "common"... I can't really think of anything that speaks to it directly. I should look into that.

I don't either. I wrote "part," not a numbered step. But, timing is included in the process (whether one uses it or not), when to go to the next step.

I'm lost. What process are you referring to? I meant that Stick-Adhere-Join-Follow is not a process. They are four independent skills that may be used blended together or singly to support or assist other techniques.

Or maybe skills that are built on other techniques? Peng to enable Zhan makes more sense than Zhan to enable Peng. They bridge the hua-na part of the hua-na-fa process. Zhan to enable An makes just as much sense as An to enable Zhan, now that I think of that.

So maybe they are just four skills that are supported and assisted by other techniques and also support and assist other techniques, all of which are used at various stages in the process of hua-na-fa, though probably not as much in the fa part?

Final answer: Sui/Follow and Lian/Join belong to Hua while Zhan/Stick and Nian/Adhere belong to Na

[marvin8]

A part of that process should be timing.

I'm lost. What process are you referring to? I meant that Stick-Adhere-Join-Follow is not a process. They are four independent skills that may be used blended together or singly to support or assist other techniques.

Or maybe skills that are built on other techniques? Peng to enable Zhan makes more sense than Zhan to enable Peng. They bridge the hua-na part of the hua-na-fa process. Zhan to enable An makes just as much sense as An to enable Zhan, now that I think of that.

So maybe they are just four skills that are supported and assisted by other techniques and also support and assist other techniques, all of which are used at various stages in the process of hua-na-fa, though probably not as much in the fa part?

Zhang Yun (whom you quoted) refers to them as a process below. At the same time, they are skills. Regardless, timing should have a part in using these skills (Dr. Yang's point).

Excerpt from "The Song of Push Hands (Da Shou Ge)," http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_DaShouG ... houGe.html

Traditionally, it is recommended that: First, study how you can follow your opponent, that means do not let him get you, this is sui. Second, try to follow him, and never let him get away, this is lian. Third, try to connect with him with minimum force, this is nian. Fourth, try to control him with the least amount of effort possible, this is zhan. So the whole process goes from you following him to him following you, from getting away from his control to controlling him.

Per Zhang, certain steps must be present to be "true taiji skill:"

Excerpt from "Jin in Taiji Quan," http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_Jin/TJ_Jin3.html

4. Using jin in pushing hands and fighting

One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly. They just want to use their jin to beat their opponents as hard as possible. But in real Taiji Quan skill, throwing jin should never be used alone. The complete process consists of five steps:

1. Ting – listen: feel or detect what the opponent want to do,
2. Hua – melt or dissolve: neutralize the attacking force,
3. Yin – lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
4. Na - hold or control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced), and
5. Fa - release a throwing force: attack.

Here the first four skills are nei jin skills, while the last one, fa, can be either nei jin or wai jin. In order to be true Taiji skill, the first four steps must be present.