to the elbow, not the hand

[rojcewiczj]

In this passing year I have begun weekly grappling sessions with high level wrestlers and judo/ jiu jujitsu practitioners. These experiences have done much to develop the understanding and practice of my fundamental gong fu.
I'd like to share and open for discussion a key point which has become apparent.

The weight moves to the elbow, not the hand. What I mean by this is that your weight only reaches your hand by passing through your elbow. When you try to put your weight directly into your hands, it results in locking at the shoulder, the power is jammed. When I move my body so as to focus my weight to my elbows, nothing can stop the redistribution of my weight. This awareness becomes a safeguard against the busy hands which fly about without effect. The elbows and knees, like a child crawling, naturally receive the weight of the body. The hands and feet extend that action but can never replace the elbows and knees. The attempt to act directly at the hands and feet is a major barrier to applying whole-body power. Let the hands become hooks or hammers, move the elbows with the body, direct the body to the elbows, direct the elbows to the body.

Again, these are my thoughts on the practical necessities of martial arts movement, as experienced through grappling.
I'd love to hear others thoughts on the matter.

[GrahamB]

Personally, I find the body use for grappling is quite opposite of the body use for striking - if you specialise in one type of art then your body naturally 'moulds' to that way of working.

Grappling is big on heavy 'pulling-in' motions in towards the body (clinching, curling) - and striking is big on explosive outwards movements (punching, striking, kicking outwards). The muscles/tendons, etc seem to adapt to this over time.

To a person who grapples all the time, striking feels weird. To a person who strikes all the time, grappling feels weird.

If you want to be a good all-rounder (like an MMA person, the ideal for somebody who doesn't want to specialise in one area) then you can never be as good as a specialist in that area, but you have a more rounded skill set.

If I grapple all the time and don't practice strikes, my strikes feel very slow and sluggish. It takes a bit of work to get them back to where they should be.

If you punch and focus on your elbow too much I think your hand speed will be slow, compared to somebody who focusses on the hand movement.

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In groundwork one of the things I'm very into is making frames - holding the person's weight with minimal effort. To do this you use elbows and knees. If you use hands and feet you get overextended.

If you get trapped in a bad position then inserting an elbow frame is invaluable. If you can get it in there then you can take their weight quite easily. The reason is quite simple - the bone from the elbow to the shoulder doesn't bend (unless it breaks!) so you can hold a lot of weight using it and direct that weight to the ground using the skeletal structure. If you hold the weight on your hand then your elbow will be the weak point and bend (unless you lock your arm straight, but that has some big disadvantages in grappling).

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Some random ramblings on the subject

[MaartenSFS]

Good points, GrahamB!

[charles]

The attempt to act directly at the hands and feet is a major barrier to applying whole-body power.

Your statement contradicts the admonitions of the "Classics" as well as what higher-level practitioners can, and readily do, demonstrate. Being able to get "qi" or "jin" out to the extremities (e.g. hands) is a learned skill. The Classics don't say, "Rooted in the feet, directed by the waist and expressed in the elbows". One CAN "express" to the elbows, but one ought to be able to do so to the hands, as well, at will.

This awareness becomes a safeguard against the busy hands which fly about without effect.

If one's hands "fly about without effect", it is usually due to their being disconnected from the rest of the body (i.e. isolated motion). Connecting them is a trained, learned skill.

[rojcewiczj]

When your weight is in the elbows the hands can make use of it. If your weight is not in your elbows, your hands will be light. For striking, the weight shifts to the elbows and then the forearm can fire out. For grappling, the weight shifts to the elbows and then the hands can hook or push.

[charles]

When your weight is in the elbows the hands can make use of it. If your weight is not in your elbows, your hands will be light. For striking, the weight shifts to the elbows and then the forearm can fire out. For grappling, the weight shifts to the elbows and then the hands can hook or push.

Clearly, that is your experience. And, there's nothing wrong with that.

As a suggestion, however, study - first-hand - with someone who can put weight/qi/jin in their hands. It's different than what you are describing, as is the method to obtain that ability.

[MaartenSFS]

When your weight is in the elbows the hands can make use of it. If your weight is not in your elbows, your hands will be light. For striking, the weight shifts to the elbows and then the forearm can fire out. For grappling, the weight shifts to the elbows and then the hands can hook or push.

I disagree. The strikes should come from your core, whether they are direct strikes like a straight punch or a swinging strike like a "haymaker". The elbow is just one link in the chain.

[marvin8]

The attempt to act directly at the hands and feet is a major barrier to applying whole-body power.

Your statement contradicts the admonitions of the "Classics" as well as what higher-level practitioners can, and readily do, demonstrate. Being able to get "qi" or "jin" out to the extremities (e.g. hands) is a learned skill. The Classics don't say, "Rooted in the feet, directed by the waist and expressed in the elbows". One CAN "express" to the elbows, but one ought to be able to do so to the hands, as well, at will.

This awareness becomes a safeguard against the busy hands which fly about without effect.

If one's hands "fly about without effect", it is usually due to their being disconnected from the rest of the body (i.e. isolated motion). Connecting them is a trained, learned skill.

When your weight is in the elbows the hands can make use of it. If your weight is not in your elbows, your hands will be light. For striking, the weight shifts to the elbows and then the forearm can fire out. For grappling, the weight shifts to the elbows and then the hands can hook or push.

In grappling and striking, weight is in the feet, not elbows. The greatest power (whole body) is generated from ground reaction force transferring from the feet through the bows (e.g., joints, tendons, etc.) to the hands.

The body (including arms/elbows) is like a whip, ball/chain, archer's bow, balloon or springs, etc., storing and releasing kinetic energy. The whole body should be relaxed, including elbows. "Heavy hands" (boxing term) derive from the whole body, not just elbows or hands. Throws/trips use rotation around the center of mass or leverage, more than power in the hands. This is understood by most MAs and sports.

[johnwang]

In the following clip, he did not put any weight on his elbow or hand.

[RobP3]

In the following clip, he did not put any weight on his elbow or hand.

He didn't hit anyone either

[charles]

In the following clip, he did not put any weight on his elbow or hand.

He didn't hit anyone either

THAT was funny.


I think we're talking past each other. Different techniques, different situations involve "putting the weight" in different places at different times in different situations. The point is to have the ability/skill to put it wherever you want when you want it.

[dspyrido]

I'd love to hear others thoughts on the matter.

I think it's great that you're training with grapplers. Suggest finding some kickboxers to.

In xy:
Hand and feet, elbow knee, shoulder hip. Takes 100s of hours of training just to get that.
Then it's the bows engaging with the alignments as required. 100s more hours.
All this so it can be unlearnt to "fly like a bird" (light and fast) and then get engaged from a shorter & shorter distance so as to power a strike, parry/block, arm drag, hip throw etc.

[johnwang]

In the following clip, he did not put any weight on his elbow or hand.

He didn't hit anyone either

I won't do any difference. Whether I hit my heavy bag, or strike into the thin air, my body will move in exactly the same way..

[RobP3]

In the following clip, he did not put any weight on his elbow or hand.

He didn't hit anyone either

I won't do any difference. Whether I hit my heavy bag, or strike into the thin air, my body will move in exactly the same way..

Why hit thin air?
A heavy bag will change your thin air movement and hitting a person will change it again. Better to hit people.

[johnwang]

Why hit thin air?

You throw a punch, your opponent steps back, your punch miss and hit the thin air. Since you won't know whether your opponent can get away from your punch, you will punch him the same way.