The Dark Side of Aikido

[GrahamB]

Well, that didn’t turn out quite the way I thought it would ... I thought an episode about Aikido would be a pretty lighthearted thing to do... I was wrong.

No, turns out Aikido's history is a pretty dark subject. In fact, very dark.

https://www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/a ... upWWJOMolA

"#6 Aikido Heresies

Is Aikido a cult? In this episode we divert our attention briefly to the difficult subjects of Aikido and Omotokyo, examining in particular the darker side of Aikido's origins."

Happy fucking Christmas.

[jtan]

I didn't even bother to read... but -

No. A cult tries to find mindless unthinking people. Look at the history and quality of the second generation. Kishomaru redid aikido into his image. Shioda opened his own branch. Likewise Tohei, Saito and others too many to mention. Everyone extremely opinionated and strong willed.

The founder by all accounts didn't ask anyone to follow his religion instead insisting on the unity of all. And at the end of the day, the techniques had to work. The founder insisted his way of life had a direct correlation to his technique. n my experience, in CMA the highest level teachers I've known, implied or directly insisted that "virtue" had a direct correlation with ability to learn. So not too different.

Under Ueshiba's guidance, we can see what the 2nd generation accomplished.

Its interesting to view what later generations are accomplishing (or not) The farther they get away from the root.

You can tell the quality of the teacher from the strength of the people who choose to be mentored by this person.

[GrahamB]

Thanks Tom, that was kind of the question I was asking him at the end of the podcast.... He gave his answer in the podcast. Perhaps not the answer I was looking for, but that's his answer. I don't think he knows who people like Dan and Mike are.

Knowing more now about the ideologies behind the people who created Daito Ryu Aikijutsu and Aikido that lead to the atrocities like Unit 731, personally, I find everything to do with it horribly tainted by association. I wouldn't go looking for anything there myself or ever bow to a picture of Ueshiba.

[middleway]

Looking forward to this episode. As someone who researched a fair bit of daito ryu history it will for sure be an interesting listen.

[GrahamB]

Heh You'll probably hate it then, I don't think Daitu Ryu has the history it claims, or in fact, much history at all

[wayne hansen]

I have been lucky enough to see and train with good practicioners of aikido
No one who trained with Sergie Sugarno would ever doubt his ability to apply it on the street

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Hi Graham,

What's your partner's background? Any academic training? Hobbyist historian? If so, pretty impressive for an autodidact.

Very few mistakes that could mostly be chalked up to a particular viewpoint/axe to grind.

I'm on vacation now, so maybe I'll go back and see if I can learn anything new from the previous casts. I couldn't help but be frustrated at times, though, and wished I was in the room to push back a bit on some points which would have led to some interesting conversations, to be sure.

Good work.

[GrahamB]

Ian,

To be honest I have to fight to get a word in

His background academically is in biology. I think he also did a PhD Thesis on the Mongol invasions of Japan.

He also has a brain the size of a planet, but appears as the most down to earth normal person you'll ever meet in person. He also hits harder than anybody you'll ever meet.

You should go and check out the previous episodes - they inform this one as well as contain many revelations themselves.

[middleway]

Just listened. Really enjoyed it!!

He is definitely right on the daito ryu history, I don't think any serious researchers think the style itself started with anyone but sokaku so definitely not controversialon that topic. People like Stan Pranin (rip) pretty much got rid of the idea that daito ryu itself is a koryu about 15 - 20 years ago.

The further discussion not had would be, where DID sokaku get his skills of course. That one is not as easy to answer. The methods of aiki in daito ryu are likely based on older traditions And the influence of itto ryu etc cannot be underestimated imo. Of course sokaku taught itto ryu alongside daito ryu for some time.

One bugbear for this and the judo episode in fact is the mocking of 'time training'. In some ways it's understandable.

The 4 year training mark for ueshiba is a little misleading. Firstly he wasn't provided with a menkyo kaiden but a kyoju dairi (representative instructor) this would be similar to a purple belt becoming a 'coach' in bjj IMO and wouldn't particularly mean ueshiba had mastered anything at that point. Think purple belts opening bjj gyms around the place... They can still manhandle most people and are good represtetives for the style but are by no means professors.

Secondly, Years of training do not equate as they would for hobbiests today. The best example I can give you is someone like bj Penn. In 3 years he got his black belt in bjj and won the world championships. Would we look at him and laugh that he 'only trained 3 years'. it is a bit of a false assumption to say That 4 years of perminant daily training would not result in sufficient skillsets.

Overall, however I really enjoyed the information on aikido, it's a side I had not heard before (as I am not really interested in aikido). His general opinions on aikido functionality are absolutely well founded.

Thanks for continuing to put out great content. You are doing a great job mate.

[GrahamB]

Thanks Chris. Glad you liked it.

I think the time training point is more of a reflection on how long it takes to get a black belt in BJJ for the average person these days. Or that your average judoka would assume Kano trained for much longer than he did before starting his own school.

We started putting together a list of topics for future episodes last night. I don’t think we’re going to run out of topics anytime soon....

[GrahamB]

“
During the summer of 1935, Admiral Takeshita made his fifth visit to North America. Stops included New Orleans, San Francisco, Washington DC, and Seattle. His purpose was to tell US audiences that the international press misinterpreted Japan’s role in China. The Japanese objective, he said, was not to spread the Japan’s Co-Prosperity Sphere but to stop international Communism. “No Japanese warship has ever crossed the Pacific except on a mission of peace,” he said during a radio broadcast in San Francisco. “No Japanese soldier has ever come to these shores except on a similar mission.”
”

Jesus Christ - such bullshit shouldn’t be given a voice. His idea of peace involved war crimes. Rape, torture, you name it. They did it all.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Ian,

To be honest I have to fight to get a word in

His background academically is in biology. I think he also did a PhD Thesis on the Mongol invasions of Japan.

He also has a brain the size of a planet, but appears as the most down to earth normal person you'll ever meet in person. He also hits harder than anybody you'll ever meet.

You should go and check out the previous episodes - they inform this one as well as contain many revelations themselves.

That's pretty awesome. I know the system is very different over there, but to say, "his background is in this, but he also picked up a PhD in this," clearly indicates a talented person.

RE later comments, I think it's problematic to link all Japanese to war atrocities, especially the way Damon and you do. I'm looking forward to reading Tom's info in the am (is that from Pranrin?).

Anyway, I'll be back, but might take a day or two, so, sorry for that, but not ignoring anyone who has posted on this great thread thus far.


RSF is bring it back! Good to see JW posting more and more, too.

[GrahamB]

Hi Ian,

All Japanese? I wouldn’t say that and I don’t think I’ve said that either.

That sounds like that “not all men!” Comment men make when a woman dares to point out something sexist - lol.


Best
Graham

[GrahamB]

If anybody wants to know what Unit 731 was doing, then here it is. Warning: You might not want to watch this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3k4KTThMYE



The end of this documentary - the complete whitewashing of history, the US involvement in a cover-up so they could use the 'science'. We can't let it be forgotten.

[Doc Stier]

Great thread. Very interesting! It seems to me that the progressive changes in these arts is one which apparently occurs in virtually all martial arts through successive generations of teachers and practitioners in any lineage. Those who follow in the footsteps of a style's founder rarely replicate the insights and skills of the founder. Those who do are definitely the exceptions rather than the norm.

However talented and skilled the disciples of famous masters may be, they are not their teachers. Each practitioner approaches the training with a uniquely personal perspective and set of physical attributes which influences their stylistic interpretation of the training material and techniques, as well as their ability to effectively execute its fighting applications. Even if one is fortunate enough to actually be taught the indoor training methods used by a famed master to develop and maintain their expertise, most students won't seriously practice such methods in the same way the master did anyway.

Instead, they will modify and edit the training material and methods to compensate for their own lack of sufficient motivation or ability to 'eat bitter' like the famous masters did. This is a phenomenon which plays out again and again in all popular martial arts in every era. That's just human nature to seek the path of least resistance as the easiest way to success, but a path that generally results in making too many concessions to the earlier training systems responsible for the skills being sought.