Does The Rondel Dagger Have A Chinese Cousin?

[edededed]

The fuyuanbi (or panguanbi) is a bit different, as it has no hilt and finger-rings instead (it also has no blades) - but you knew that.

Fuyuanbi/panguanbi are quite similar to emeici (Emei piercers).

Bishou are the typical Chinese equivalent of daggers, and are often used in pairs. Bishou hilts are rather small, though.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
Every time the experts say the knife is obsolete, something happens to show otherwise. It is true that edged weapons have played only a slight role in combat for the last century or so, but the role never quite disappears, despite turning into a bit part. You can never be quite sure things won't degenerate to hand-to-hand.
SNIP

Yes, but its use is so rare, it is barely worthwhile training it. Look at the amount of time modern armies spend on bayonet training versus weapons handling (ie firearms and missile weapons).

SNIP
The body armor of the present era might even increase, slightly, the incidence of face to face, belly to belly combat, by reducing the effect of projectiles. Statistically, I would think a certain number of people who would have been stopped but for the armor will continue forward because they have it. TIme will tell on that one. In any case I expect military organizations to go on training and packing edged weapons, even if only for the purpose of instilling the idea that soldiers may have to close with the enemy. It's a psychological plus if that idea is not foreign to you.
SNIP

MA can be useful for PT (the Korean Army uses it for this) and for aggression - the 'spirit of the bayonet' is, indeed, important in training. This does not change the fact that its use is very, very, very rare. The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders made a bayonet charge in Iraq, but I don't know if they actually bayonetted any of their enemy (the enemy scattered) Knives are, indeed, useful to the modern infantryman living in the field - but as tools, not weapons. The possibility of someone re-designing a rondel and issuing it to modern troops is, I think, about 10000-1 against. If I were taking a platoon to fight in Afghanistan, I would be training my guys in tactical movement, section battle drills, marksmanship and air support - not knife fighting or MA.

[Bob]

The fuyuanbi (or panguanbi) is a bit different, as it has no hilt and finger-rings instead (it also has no blades) - but you knew that.

Fuyuanbi/panguanbi are quite similar to emeici (Emei piercers).

Bishou are the typical Chinese equivalent of daggers, and are often used in pairs. Bishou hilts are rather small, though.
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You are right that it has no blade but the judge's pen, as seen in the article, I think does not have a ring and one end is shaped or rounded like an inverted mushroom---I have to check the article next week. What you describe are what we had referred to as bagua needles. I couldn't find a picture on the internet of the Judge's Pen.

[edededed]

Actually, both are panguanbi (judge's pens) in a way - basically, it seems that there are two camps that do not agree on what the panguanbi exactly were. (It seems that in Beijing, most people agree that it is the one with the ring on it - although martial arts shops seem to sell both there )

[klonk]

All right, Andy, I will grant you are right. But note how many soldiers buy specialty fighting knives on their own money, and I would not put it past some clever chap to make a dime turning out the next neat thing to suit changing perceptions. Okay, most of the Gerbers, Eks and so on never do anything more martial than open an MRE. But a knife you have picked out yourself is a sight better value for your money than a rabbit's foot, because you at least get some use out of it.

How did that crazy idea get started, anyway, that it's lucky to carry a rabbit's foot? It wasn't lucky for the rabbit.

[edededed]

Pretty unlucky if you ask me! (Carrying animal body parts for the sake of carrying animal body parts can't be lucky!)

[klonk]

Hard to say how superstitions arise.

On a sort of tangentially related note, is there any causal link between modern body armor and the U.S. Army's decision to teach a kind of BJJ Lite as their basic combatives course? Military wrestling was also a big deal in the rondel's era. Punching and kicking someone who is wearing armor doesn't bother him, but likely hurts you!

Andy, before you point it out, yes, there is very little chance of having to choke out an enemy. Matt Larsen, the combatives course's creator, admits as much. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2800

[Methods]

We use a dagger in my Dragon system. There are two forms, one to be used with a knifes and the other with a round pointed dagger with a lip thing on it, sort of a half of a gen (sai)

[edededed]

As an aside, I have never heard the term "gen" - is this a Mandarin word? Does anyone know the character?

[Andy_S]

I can see that a heavily sparring-based MA - boxing, kickboxing, grappling etc (hence BJJ) - is useful to train a soldiers in aggression, courage, stamina and durability (hell, I did milling/boxing when I was in, back in the day). These are all important attributes for a soldier, though it is HIGHLY unlikely such techniques have much, if any, tactical use on the modern battlefield.

However, knife based combat is much, much more difficult to "spar," hence, I would say, is of less value.

[klonk]

Yup. Much of the stated goal is as you say, to build warrior mindset, principally. If you did, though, ever need to use unarmed techniques (to my mind an indication you screwed up somewhere), BJJ would be better than punching if the other guy is weatring fiber and plate armor...

On the gen/sai--it's very versatile. You can use it as a truncheon or for blocking. You can use the guard tines to hook it in your belt, no need for a sheath, so it's easy to carry. You can use the round shaft in Kubotan-style wrist locks and so forth. All considered, an ingenious tool.