the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

The rondel dagger was an important weapon in the 14th-15th century AD, in Europe. It was a long, stiff thrusting weapon used in reverse grip (blade below hand). The disk shaped pommel and guard (the rondels) protected and stabilized the hand, and made the weapon difficult to take away. The weapon was used for powerful thrusts in the hammer fist manner, against chain mail, or the gaps in plate armor. Of course, if the opponent was not armored, the thing worked even better.



The rondel dagger was a very popular because it suited the times. Knights, soldiers and civilians alike carried it, and a certain amount of artistry developed in its use, hooking and trapping moves, as well as thrusts.



I have noticed that the Chinese invented many sorts of edged and pointed weapons, quite a variety, in fact, and more than Europeans. I am wondering if the extremely practical rondel dagger has any near matches among Chinese weapons. Thanks!

Thanks, Bill! In the first dagger you posted, in particular, I can see a similarity of function, though the form is different. The big, jian-style guard would tend to cushion a heavy hammer fist type blow, and make sure your hand does not slide forward off the handle. The good sized pommel knob, depending on the size of the user's hand, could lock the handle into the hand, in a reverse grip. Pretty cool.

I am not, myself, very enthusiastic about the reverse grip. But it certainly is the thing if armor is involved. With the increased use of body armor on the modern battlefield, the old reverse grip may be about to make a comeback, and with it, daggers designed to make the most of this technique.

One thing you did not point out about the rondel is that the most common form involved a cylindrical blade.

Double Gen (Chinese Sai):

Gen are the predecessor to the popular Okinawan Sai. These heavy metal rods were also China's ancient police batons. The shaft and tines of the sai were used to block, strike and ensnare enemy weapons. Sometimes an extra sai was carried in the belt as a backup. The shaft of the weapon was never bladed, which would have made any reversing action in order to strike with the hilt, or block with the shaft, along the forearm, completely impossible. If the sai were used for thrusting to any depth into the enemy's body, because of suction it would be very difficult to withdraw the weapon, which would render it useless. This may be another reason why an extra sai was carried.



Doc

I'm not familiar with a cylindrical blade version of the rondel dagger, got a picture somewhere?

An okay backgrounder on the rondel:
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_rondel.html

no idea, but this:



is a beautiful knife.

Hey! Is Michael Jackson the 3rd guy from the left?

I don't think so. The illustration is from a 1467 manual, and I don't think Jacko started with the new look until some time after that...

Interesting (to me anyway) is that from about the 15th century onward, we have a pretty clear understanding of Western martial arts. Even though various arts did not survive in the sense of continuous lineages, quite a few old manuals are still around. Earlier than that the matter is more sketchy.

RE:
With the increased use of body armor on the modern battlefield, the old reverse grip may be about to make a comeback, and with it, daggers designed to make the most of this technique.

What on earth makes you think knives have any relevence on the "modern battlefield," regardless of the increased use of body armour? Said armour is designed to protect against bullets and shrapnel, not edged weapons - which indicates it is bullets, shrapnel (and blast) that cause casualties.

C'mon.

Every time the experts say the knife is obsolete, something happens to show otherwise. It is true that edged weapons have played only a slight role in combat for the last century or so, but the role never quite disappears, despite turning into a bit part. You can never be quite sure things won't degenerate to hand-to-hand.

The body armor of the present era might even increase, slightly, the incidence of face to face, belly to belly combat, by reducing the effect of projectiles. Statistically, I would think a certain number of people who would have been stopped but for the armor will continue forward because they have it. TIme will tell on that one. In any case I expect military organizations to go on training and packing edged weapons, even if only for the purpose of instilling the idea that soldiers may have to close with the enemy. It's a psychological plus if that idea is not foreign to you.

Well, in order to go through a Holtzman shield, you have to use relatively low velocity and low energy techniques, making bladed weapons ideal for this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holtzman_effect

(Sorry klonk, I had to! )

And the whole world have to answer right now just to tell you once again....

That's bad!

let shai hulud judge

What about the bagua judge's pen?

I don't know if I have a picture of one but there was a photo in the old Bagua Journal of Liu Yun Qiao holding one---he learned it from Gong Bao Tian.