Modify your class to meet your student's need

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Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby johnwang on Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:31 pm

If a student comes to you and wants to learn how to fight against MMA guys in MMA gym. He is not interested in learning your complete MA system. He just wants to learn how to use few effective entering strategies, changes the striking game into a wrestling game, and takes his opponent down ASAP.

How will you modify your class to meet your student's need? Your thought?
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby Subitai on Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:28 pm

johnwang wrote:If a student comes to you and wants to learn how to fight against MMA guys in MMA gym. He is not interested in learning your complete MA system. He just wants to learn how to use few effective entering strategies, changes the striking game into a wrestling game, and takes his opponent down ASAP.

How will you modify your class to meet your student's need? Your thought?



Is this hypothetical question? Or based on an actual student...who wants to fight against MMA guys in an MMA gym?

Because if it's the latter...tell him,
#1 he shouldn't do it and
# 2, refer back to # 1 because it's stupid to go into their house and expect to beat them at their own game.
====================================
Otherwise,

Lets say it IS in fact some guy who you deem to not be a total Douche bag and seems to be sincere.

Well then I look at it like this:

1) He only wants to get from me certain things but isn't interested in fully becoming a student that I can pass all my knowledge onto? WIIFM? (whats in it for me)

= Sounds like a business transaction. I mean, lets call it what it really is. Why would I share all my hard work with a guy to help him go fight MMA....for free?

2) to finally answer your question:
He just wants to learn how to use few effective entering strategies, changes the striking game into a wrestling game, and takes his opponent down ASAP.


- I'd 1st asses if the dude is fit enough to even step onto the mat. Most average citizens would get hurt immediately without a certain standard of fitness. Especially in vital areas like the Back and Neck...let alone everywhere else. If he passes that.... then move on.

- Next it'd have to be a combination of drilling proper entry methods and then doing with live resistance. If I have students for him to spar with as well, I'd also recommend vs different body types, i.e. bigger, taller and fatter than you.

- I'd focus on three entries:
1st)From basic punching: I.e. Jabb, cross, hooks... and set up the entry off it
2nd) From basic kicks: I.e. Front, round and side. How to check, catch or counter throw to enter them.
3rd) From basic single and double leg take downs. Both from when he starts (shoots them) or from when those are attempted on him and he has to counter them.

* From Basic punches, kicks and simple take downs are a good foundation to master entries.

With those 3 concepts I could teach him to reach the goal you set: " which was how to learn to use effective entering strategies ...asap "

=============================================================

Back to what I said before...no fricken way would I teach that ASAP to some guy if I sense he's a douche.

Even if he's not, if it's some guy who wants the fruits of all my hard work ? It's not going to be for free. Sorry but if a Doctor says to me, "I went to school for over 10 years...shouldn't I be paid for it"? I say "ok then, I agree and so should I ".
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:12 pm

I agree with Subitai. I'd nee some incentive. I'd be more willing to teach an established fighter how to learn my best material if it would help give me credibility, but I reckon that will never happen..
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby cloudz on Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:25 am

I think modifying your classes for one student is taking it a bit far. That sounds like something that might work better in a private setting though.
If that's the plan though he better work on sub grappling and ground and pound etc. as well at some point. Wrestling to dominant position is one part of the possible MMA game.

You can spend forever planning and training entries then find yourself arm barred 30 seconds after getting side control if you got no ground game.
Didn't you just waste too much time focusing too much on entries and or some anti striking tactic(s) to end up like that..

IMO ultimately you can't really by pass learning the others game(s) to an extent. KF(guys) have to be sneaky, join them to beat them, if that is the chosen path - to 'beat' mma at its own game.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:17 pm

I have a small class. All my guys like to test their skill in MMA gym. Every class, they will tell me what problems that they have to solve in MMA gym. I try to help them to find solution. I don't help them on the ground game, they will get their ground game information from other instructors. Their "short term goal" are to be able to do well in MMA gym.

Their question can be as simple as "How to move in to obtain a clinch in a kick/punch environment?". Since this is also my current interest. I don't have problem to spend a great deal amount of class time to work on "entering strategy" only.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby Subitai on Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:05 pm

johnwang wrote:
Their question can be as simple as "How to move in to obtain a clinch in a kick/punch environment?". Since this is also my current interest. I don't have problem to spend a great deal amount of class time to work on "entering strategy" only.


John...i'm just curious, is this a serious question or are you trolling as a joke?

The reason I ask is because I have a great respect for your martial arts background and your Rhino Guard isn't too shabby either. (Actually i'd love to test myself against it one day as a side note.) In a friendly way ie. haha. and then we can go to the PUB! ;)

If you are serious...are you just looking for input from people who have done MMA themselves? Btw, I applaud your guys for going in and finding out (field testing their sh!T for themselves), very good!

================================================================
This topic right here is my passion and I say this stuff only cause someone of your quality (JohnWang) asked.

OK THEN "How to move in to obtain a clinch in a kick/punch environment?"
================================================================
I ASSUME YOU MEAN STAND UP CLINCH? For example, As in both guys have come close enough to grab eacthother with "Over or Under hooks". Like it happens in MMA when they are standing near the fence?

Really?? Ask yourself... what are the core basic strikes you see used in MMA? Jabb, Cross and Hook from either orthodox or southpaw.

Without giving it all away .... you have a few basic choices:

1) When they punch, you can intercept and attack at almost the same time to sting him or get him to pause just slightly. (you could duck or slip and counter as well, btw)

For example, a guy is throwing jabbs. I get into his timing after his 2nd or 3rd one. Then on the next one, I (Intercept it) slightly parry it and attack back at the same time. This will get him to put is guard up and block it or if you're lucky you might also connect and sting him with it. If you're a fighter, you would easily see what i'm saying. Especially if you can distract his attention for a split second.
- This break in time is a good place to shoot under if you know how to lower your level and get in there. * What will be the result? he will have to wrestle to contend with you closing in and you will end up in a clinch or it could lead to the ground. Otherwise you'll just separate and it will start over.

If all I needed was to get close enough to clinch...this is very easy, especially if you have a wrestling background to compliment your strike game.


2) You can be the aggressor:

- You time with your opponent and learn to attack so that "your hands do not come back empty"
If I press on my own attack with a simple jab, cross, hook...and my opponent is willing to (i.e. NOT BACK AWAY) stay close enough to keep his hands up and block me...then it's easy to step in and clinch with him. Peace of cake.


3)Stopping a striker from retracting. This is more advanced IMO and a big reason that many TMA get into trouble sticking their arms out too far trying to engage or block or bridge and they get KTFO.

* If you can stop a strike from returning...you also prevent his other side from striking effectively. Which in turn can lead you into a clinch.

- But when a puncher is fast and efficient this isn't easy to do. Think about how fast a guy can punch or jab...and then it returns to position?
- If you wait for a guy to attack you 1st and for you to block it 1st...it will be gone and returned to it's owner before you can utilize it.
* It's the quintessential problem for most TMA demos. THAT NOBODY WOULD LEAVE THEIR ARM OUT THERE LIKE THAT FOR ME TO DO FANCY STUFF ON!

Again as a side note, Bruce Lee was smart when he was thinking intercept but there are other ways to bait a guy or get him to do what he wouldn't normally do...and that's to leave his arm out there a little bit longer than he wanted to. Even if it's only for a split second...it can make a huge difference.

I suppose there are many ways that other teachers think they can do this. I know that from all my experiences, I believe that I also have my own theory and methods to achieve this. This is the main thing people come to me for and I've been dropping hints about it for years on Youtube.

================================================

For kicks...it's too easy. Unless your dog tired...but then, it's tough for anyone when they are sucking wind.

I catch kicks...and I'm damn good at it. I like to work front, round and side kicks because they are the most common. Really low leg kicks just check but if they go higher...it's pretty easy to do. Once you caught them...the clinch is easy. If you fail or his leg slips away...you just keep trying until you get it.

Anybody who's done San Da / San Shou can do most of these easily.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:09 pm

Subitai wrote:John...i'm just curious, is this a serious question or are you trolling as a joke?

I'm not joking at all.

I just came back to Texas from California a week ago. Yesterday was my 1st class since I came back. I have 2 new students who learned only Shuai Chuai from me. They had learned striking art and ground game from other instructors. They are not interested to learn any striking art from me. They just want to learn the throwing art. So I teach them how to set up and apply certain throws in the wrestling (or combat) environment. Instead of testing their wrestling skill on the wrestling mat, they test their skill in MMA gym instead. This cause some problem for me. I wasn't intend to teach them the Sanda skill (even if I am a certified Sanda coach from China). My throwing skill set up doesn't work very well with gloves situation (difficult to grab and pull). In Sanda class, I have to teach them how to catch a kick first which I haven't taught them yet.

In order to meet these guy's need, I have to change my class into Sanda (since I don't teach the ground game, I'm not a qualified MMA instructor). I don't mind to have a Sanda class but it only covers a small subset of the throwing skill.

My interest is not in sport but combat. I don't want to force myself to be only a sport coach. But to solve my student's problems, I have to deal with the gloves issue. I don't mind to deal with the gloves issue 20 years ago. But today, I'm quite tired of going back to gloves.

The main skill that I teach these 2 guys are

- throw a jab to opponent's face.
- when opponent blocks, you pull his blocking arm on the wrist.
- At the same time use the other hand to pull his elbow joint (just like the Taiji "double pulling").

Unfortunately this set up doesn't work well in the gloves environment.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:24 pm

If you are a Judo (or Taiji) instructor, when your students test their Judo (or Taiji) skill in MMA gym, they will complain that all the set up that you have taught them won't work with gloves. What will you do then?
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby Subitai on Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:23 pm

Johnwang wrote:
If you are a Judo (or Taiji) instructor, when your students test their Judo (or Taiji) skill in MMA gym, they will complain that all the set up that you have taught them won't work with gloves. What will you do then?


Mabe not with Boxing type gloves...but with modern open finger mma style gloves...you can adjust.

Oh dude, it may depend on the style you get but for most open finger ones...you can totally Grab with MMA gloves. I mean not perfectly the same as none but still pretty good. They just have to wear them allot and get used to them.

Actually, sometimes MMA gloves can give you a better grip because as you slide down the arm towards the wrist...it gives you something to grip onto. For example, if you have an over hook squeezing on a guys forearm and he can't pull his hand out because of the MMA glove blocks it. (it gets stuck)

As a general rule for wrestling hand control...a 2 on 1 is always better than just 1 on 1. So with gloves on, you may have to focus on catches or clinches that utilize 2 on 1's in the beginning, then they progress to something else.

====================================================
Another thing to consider, If I'm an MMA guy sparring with your students and I happen to know that they would like to clinch (standing up) or tie up my arms (standing up)

- all I have to do in order to "throw a monkey wrench" into their game plan is be either one of two things:

1) "Float like a butterfly sting like a bee" Pick your shots while in stand up, hands in tight, good footwork, broken rhythm...don't be there when it isn't necessary.

2) dispense with the stand up and take it to the ground.

= Big problem for Taiji...it's not designed for ground and judo doesn't really strike.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby cloudz on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:37 am

johnwang wrote:I have a small class. All my guys like to test their skill in MMA gym. Every class, they will tell me what problems that they have to solve in MMA gym. I try to help them to find solution. I don't help them on the ground game, they will get their ground game information from other instructors. Their "short term goal" are to be able to do well in MMA gym.

Their question can be as simple as "How to move in to obtain a clinch in a kick/punch environment?". Since this is also my current interest. I don't have problem to spend a great deal amount of class time to work on "entering strategy" only.



Cool.

They can still do well using striking for example, but it's also good to focus on using wrestling to put out that fire.. Another reasonable KF strategy in MMA might involve a preference for keeping it at "sprawl and brawl" territory. So that would take your wrestling focus away from entries to wrestling defence. But that doesn't mean you don't cover entries too.. So focus can be good, and over focus can be not so good - it depends.

For me, I prefer a CMA class to be well rounded so that would include something from each area of technique cycled in some way. A good balance if you like.

As your main thing is wrestling, it's great that you develop your plan and train it hard. But for me flexibility and options are important. At some point you have to start thinking about plans B, C and maybe even D.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby johnwang on Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:12 pm

In my today's class, we put gloves on and did head hunting for 2 hours. We trained very simple techniques.

- A punches (no kicks) anyway that he may like. We break after 10 punches.
- B uses rhino guard to deal with it. Since there is gloves, the rhino guard is just back fist touch front wrist. During A's punches, B tries to move forward and punches on A's face.

The following result is what we have found out.

1. The jab and cross is difficult to get in because the center line is well protected.
2. When A uses hook punch, B can hide his head behind his guard.
3. When A uses uppercut (shorter punch), B's fist can land on A's face (longer punch).

The best timing for B to move forward is when A uses hook or uppercut.

I don't know what MA style training this should be called. I expect we are going to do the same thing for the next 2 or 3 classes (I'll collect more data). IMO, if you can protect your head from punched, you will have courage and courage will give you speed and confidence.

Not trying to sell my rhino guard. Just share my personal experience on this. I'll be happy if one day people will use it in MMA.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:10 pm

So will I - plus some more practical TCMA techniques. :)
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby marvin8 on Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:57 am

johnwang wrote:In my today's class, we put gloves on and did head hunting for 2 hours. We trained very simple techniques.

- A punches (no kicks) anyway that he may like. We break after 10 punches.
- B uses rhino guard to deal with it. Since there is gloves, the rhino guard is just back fist touch front wrist. During A's punches, B tries to move forward and punches on A's face.

The following result is what we have found out.

1. The jab and cross is difficult to get in because the center line is well protected.
2. When A uses hook punch, B can hide his head behind his guard.
3. When A uses uppercut (shorter punch), B's fist can land on A's face (longer punch).

The best timing for B to move forward is when A uses hook or uppercut.

I don't know what MA style training this should be called. I expect we are going to do the same thing for the next 2 or 3 classes (I'll collect more data). IMO, if you can protect your head from punched, you will have courage and courage will give you speed and confidence.

Not trying to sell my rhino guard. Just share my personal experience on this. I'll be happy if one day people will use it in MMA.

Now that you have your students drilling, will you have a chance to video that "Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" (2nd stage of rhino guard, arm wrap and throw) with normal speed punches, as discussed?

marvin8 wrote:You asked and I agreed to define normal speed as the retracted punch thrown by your student in the "Rhino 2" video. Simply have the other student, blocking, do an entry and throw in between one of the punches in "Rhino 2."

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 1&start=30:
marvin8 wrote:


Yes. These feeder punches and pull backs are "fast enough/at normal speed." For example the first punch, the left jab, is at normal speed.

Simply replace the speed of the right jab in the "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" video with the speed of that first left jab and pull back in "rhino 2. (The right jab is not retracted here):

https://www.youtube.com/Bawatch?v=c0mOM6QBpxA
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:16 am

I'll try to record some clips in my next class. Since this is my 1st class by using gloves, they have not used arm wrap and head lock yet. Their rhino guard only function 2 purposes:

- Protect head from punching.
- Punch back on opponent's face.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby marvin8 on Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:00 am

johnwang wrote:I'll try to record some clips in my next class. Since this is my 1st class by using gloves, they have not used arm wrap and head lock yet. Their rhino guard only function 2 purposes:

- Protect head from punching.
- Punch back on opponent's face.

Ok, thanks.

For the 2 purposes drilling, can you have the feeder vary speed, rhythm (beats) and placement of punches? Then, add in low kicks and punch combos? Also, feeder traps, pulls, knocks down rhino guard, uses footwork, attempts side door, feints, etc. This will better prepare students for a real opponent.

The role of the feeder should be just as important as the pad holder/trainer in boxing, MMA, muay thai, etc.
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