Modify your class to meet your student's need

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby johnwang on Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:38 am

marvin8 wrote:For the 2 purposes drilling, can you have the feeder vary speed, rhythm (beats) and placement of punches? Then, add in low kicks and punch combos? Also, feeder traps, pulls, knocks down rhino guard, uses footwork, attempts side door, feints, etc. This will better prepare students for a real opponent.

The role of the feeder should be just as important as the pad holder/trainer in boxing, MMA, muay thai, etc.

Since I have 2 new students, in my next class I want to make it simple.

Let's have 1 minute per round.

1. A uses rhino guard and B uses boxing guard.
2. If B can punch on A's head (with any punch), B wins that round.
3. If A can punch on B's head (with rhino guard only), A wins that round.
4. Test this for 5 rounds and decide the winner.
5. A and B switch sides. Repeat 1 - 4.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby marvin8 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:29 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:For the 2 purposes drilling, can you have the feeder vary speed, rhythm (beats) and placement of punches? Then, add in low kicks and punch combos? Also, feeder traps, pulls, knocks down rhino guard, uses footwork, attempts side door, feints, etc. This will better prepare students for a real opponent.

The role of the feeder should be just as important as the pad holder/trainer in boxing, MMA, muay thai, etc.

Since I have 2 new students, in my next class I want to make it simple.

Let's have 1 minute per round.

1. A uses rhino guard and B uses boxing guard.
2. If B can punch on A's head (with any punch), B wins that round.
3. If A can punch on B's head (with rhino guard only), A wins that round.
4. Test this for 5 rounds and decide the winner.
5. A and B switch sides. Repeat 1 - 4.

In a technical punching drill, if B (feeder) punches at A (receiver) at the same rhythm as in "rhino 2" or does not retract his punch (as in "Head Lock - Diagonal Cut"), then A may never learn how to use rhino guard against a real, non-compliant opponent.

"Rhino 2" is not a realistic test of blocking punches, if the punches are predictable: at the same rhythm. Skilled opponents don't punch at a predictable rhythm (or a skilled person will set a rhythm [pattern] then break it).

There should be times when B (feeder/trainer) mimics a real opponent. A should understand and learn how to fight (defense/offense) with and without (break) rhythm. This is necessary to reach a high level in MMA.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby johnwang on Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:47 pm

New students have to learn how to walk before they can learn how to run. IMO, the rhino guard training stages should be:

Defense - protect your head from punching.
Offense - punch your opponent's head.
Defense and offense - obtain clinch.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby marvin8 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:39 pm

johnwang wrote:New students have to learn how to walk before they can learn how to run. IMO, the rhino guard training stages should be:

Defense - protect your head from punching.
Offense - punch your opponent's head.
Defense and offense - obtain clinch.

Yes. I was only referencing "punching" in the last post.

To be more effective it should be, ". . . from a skilled opponent punching." If one can't "defend" against a skilled opponent punching one's head (as I described in the last post), one may not want to move to the next stage,"offense."

I am not commenting on your classes themselves. Since, I haven't been to one.

That was making it simple. To more accurately emulate a skilled puncher, B (feeder) would use timing, distance, broken rhythm, position (angles) in his punching. If A can't defend from a skilled puncher B, A may not want to go the the next stage, offense.
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby johnwang on Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:57 pm

marvin8 wrote: from a skilled opponent punching.

This will be hard to do. How skilled is skilled?

If you have 3 students A, B, C. You let AB, AC, BC to fight 5 rounds each. You then obtain the result. In those 5 rounds, everybody tries to knock his opponent's head off. That's the best you can do to obtain your testing data.
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby marvin8 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:35 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote: from a skilled opponent punching.

This will be hard to do. How skill is skill?

No. There is an unskilled and skilled puncher. I explained the differences in my last two posts.

An unskilled puncher punches in the same predictable rhythm (rhino 2 video) and does not retract his punch ("Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" video). B (feeder) in the two rhino guard videos displays an unskilled puncher—by lack of skills I previously mentioned.

A skilled puncher (mainly, other skills can be included):
marvin8 wrote:To more accurately emulate a skilled puncher, B (feeder) would use timing, distance, broken rhythm, position (angles) in his punching.


johnwang wrote:If you have 3 students A, B, C. You let AB, AC, BC to fight 5 rounds each. You then obtain the result. In those 5 rounds, everybody tries to knock his opponent's head off. That's the best you can do to obtain your testing data.

It is not the best one can do. B (feeder) can train A (receiver) to defend against a skilled puncher by mimicking a skilled puncher, not unskilled.

One (A/receiver) should drill defense against a skilled puncher (B/feeder) before jumping into punch scenario sparring.
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby marvin8 on Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:41 pm

johnwang wrote:This will be hard to do. How skilled is skilled?

I'll answer your edited question within the context you have given. Any student (B/feeder) can mimic a skilled puncher: give different looks by varying timing, distance, speed, position (angles) while punching. A skilled puncher performs these at a higher level than an unskilled puncher.

An unskilled puncher punches at a predictable rhythm and doesn't retract his punch. It is better to prepare for a skilled MMA puncher, rather than an unskilled one.

A false belief from data collected may be: Rhino guard defends (blocks) against an unskilled puncher (classmate) that stands in one place in punching range (B/feeder doesn't start from outside) and punches at a constant rhythm and speed ("rhino 2" video). Therefore, rhino guard will work against a skilled puncher in MMA.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby johnwang on Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:32 pm

marvin8 wrote: can mimic a skilled puncher: ... A false belief from data collected

Your logic does not make sense. How can I ask my student to mimic a skilled puncher if they are not a skilled puncher? If they are already a skilled puncher, they don't need to learn "anti-striking".

I also ask them to collect data in their MMA gym. But since I don't know how good punchers that they have to deal with in their MMA gym, their data may also lead to a wrong conclusion too.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby marvin8 on Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:47 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote: can mimic a skilled puncher: ... A false belief from data collected

Your logic does not make sense. How can I ask my student to mimic a skilled puncher if they are not a skilled puncher? If they are already a skilled puncher, they don't need to learn "anti-striking".

Any student can "mimic a skilled puncher" by varying their:

1) Timing — delay time in between combination punches, base punch on A's (receiver's) reactions, etc.
2) Distance — change distance by moving their feet.
3) Speed — punch slow, normal or fast.
4) Position (angle) — change angle by moving their feet.

You can either mimic a skilled puncher or unskilled puncher.

In MMA and other combat sports, trainers and sparring partners mimic the opposing fighter (e.g., patterns, weakness, stance, etc.) with the understanding that the trainer and sparring partners are not the opposing fighter.

What about the above is not logical?
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby johnwang on Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:51 pm

marvin8 wrote:1) Timing — delay time in between combination punches, base punch on A's (receiver's) reactions, etc.
2) Distance — change distance by moving their feet.
3) Speed — punch slow, normal or fast.
4) Position (angle) — change angle by moving their feet.

What about the above is not logical?

If one can do all you have suggested, he is already a good puncher.

In many anti-grappling discussion, people suggest that their opponent should mimic to be a good wrestler. I don't think that's possible. You have to be a good wrestler to perform good wrestling. You can't mimic to be a good wrestler. That's why I don't agree with your logic.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby marvin8 on Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:24 am

johnwang wrote:In many anti-grappling discussion, people suggest that their opponent should mimic to be a good wrestler. I don't think that's possible. You have to be a good wrestler to perform good wrestling. You can't mimic to be a good wrestler. That's why I don't agree with your logic.

That's not my statement, nor my logic. So, there is no disagreement here.

In your given context, B (feeder) does not mimic "to be a good" wrestler or puncher. B/feeder (whether unskilled or skilled) mimics a skilled puncher to help train A (receiver).

Do you agree that one can do the following, even if they are not a "good" puncher? (A skilled puncher performs these at a higher level than an unskilled puncher.)

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:1) Timing — delay time in between combination punches, base punch on A's (receiver's) reactions, etc.
2) Distance — change distance by moving their feet.
3) Speed — punch slow, normal or fast.
4) Position (angle) — change angle by moving their feet.

What about the above is not logical?

If one can do all you have suggested, he is already a good puncher.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby johnwang on Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:47 pm

In today's 2 hours class (Sunday 12:30 pm - 2 :30 pm). we did 3 sets of testing of 10 rounds each (20 punches as 1 round).

1. A punches, B blocks with rhino guard.
2. A punches, B blocks and also punches back with rhino guard.
3. A tries to destroy B's rhino guard and also punches on B's head. B tries to obtain a clinch on A.

Believe it or not, among those 20 x 10 x 3 = 600 punches, there was not even 1 punch that could land on the head. It proves that rhino guard is effective to protect the head from punched.
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby Trick on Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:14 am

If A first kicks B in the rhino nutbag, will the rhino pointy thing still be up ?
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby marvin8 on Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:13 am

Trick wrote:If A first kicks B in the rhino nutbag, will the rhino pointy thing still be up ?

Yes. Also, what if rhino guard player faces an opponent that varies the distance and the way he punches. But, the rhino guard player trained and tested with an A (feeder) that only stood in one place and punched at the same speed?
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Re: Modify your class to meet your student's need

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:32 am

marvin8 wrote:Yes. Also, what if rhino guard player faces an opponent that varies the distance and the way he punches. But, the rhino guard player trained and tested with an A (feeder) that only stood in one place and punched at the same speed?

We did all that in my yesterday class. I will put up clips to prove it.

- The varies distance made the clinch a bit harder. We all know that if you move back (or around), it will be difficult for me to obtain a clinch on you.
- The varies punches didn't change anything. The jab, cross, hook, hay-maker, superman punch were all involved. The uppercut was not used because the short range punch vs. long range guard.

Result - Among 600 punches, there were not even a single punch that could land on the head. It proves that the rhino guard is good for head protection. As far as the effectiveness to obtain a clinch, more training will be needed for new students.

I had a new student who is a bouncer and over 10 years training in prey mantis. Yesterday was his 1st 2 hours class. With his long arms, the "rhino guard" suits him well.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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