Tai Chi, a martial art ?

[Wanderingdragon]

https://youtu.be/Oq3EWJ3B4Dk

[Subitai]

That part were he talks about suddenly meeting people in the street. Sort of spontaneously...OH how many times did I argue that same thing in comparison to a fixed (matched) mma fight on other forums! The late 90s are calling. Makes me think of the old sport vs street discussions. All I need is OLD David Ross from KungFuMagazine forums from way back and we could go at it again.

He touched upon other things that were popular topics as well. Like Tai Chi being stand up and not fighting from it's back. Being well rounded, basically not being overly specialized and that MMA would win vs most straight up TMA. That's the gist I got from what this guy was saying.

Personally, do I think Tai chi is a martial art...YES, but only if you know what you don't know i.e.

[Wanderingdragon]

I comment all the time that if you know your art it is applicable in any circumstance. I am curious as to the thoughts of othe who don’t believe tai chi can fight. I think his is a flawed understanding of the truth of tai chi as a martial art. One thing you learn in any boxing gym, fight your fight, if you fight his he can win. IMO, it is sound fighting advice.

[Bao]

So in Tai Chi you practice no punches or kicks??? I must have practiced the wrong art my whole life then. Lol!

...Another seven minutes of my life I can’t get back.

[johnwang]

So in Tai Chi you practice no punches or kicks??? I must have practiced the wrong art my whole life then. Lol!

When was the last time that we had talked about Taiji punch in RSF?

- Punch is bad (low level skill).
- Push is good (high level skill).

[Overlord]

So in Tai Chi you practice no punches or kicks??? I must have practiced the wrong art my whole life then. Lol!

When was the last time that we had talked about Taiji punch in RSF?

- Punch is bad (low level skill).
- Push is good (high level skill).

The clip shows how stupid the Taiji students are and also acting impatiently disrespectful.
AFAIC, this is the best move in Taiji and can fuse very well with me Chicken beng.

笨的像豬頭，在枝流未節的屁地方一直問，
老師年紀大了，真要講打法時愛理不理的。

[wayne hansen]

There is no best move in tai chi that statement is just silly

[GrahamB]

There's only one way to settle this - I'm going to raise an army of elite Tai chi fighters and storm the local MMA nursing home for retired fighters. Walking sticks at dawn!

[Bao]

...
- Punch is bad (low level skill).
- Push is good (high level skill).

If punching is a low or high level skill depends on such things as understanding of body mechanics and the use there of, as well as how it takes part of strategy and tactics, IMO.

IMO, most use for pushing is found in PH practice as a tool for practicing uprooting and understanding of an opponent’s balance and structure. The skill is uprooting, not pushing, something that can be used for takedowns, throws, anti-grappling/counterattacks etc.

This “ look at me I understand it all guy” in the vid obviously has only a partial understanding of Tai Chi practice and has probably never encountered any school using the art as a complete martial arts system.

[Peacedog]

I've never met a tai chi player, or any CMA practitioner for that matter, that could punch as hard as a Western style boxer. Not once.

I have met competent CMA fighters who could go up against your average guy and win with certainty. But I've never met one who could face off against a pro-MMAer and win.

I don't know if it is a "martial art vs non-martial art" thing so much as an optimal training method versus non-optimal training method thing. Also, most of the Chinese martial arts seem to have been originally designed with weapons use being their primary focus and having been forced into open hand arts by time, technology and local laws. I would finally add that none of this has been helped by the last several decades in which the mainland authorities have gone out of their way to discourage these things as fighting arts and encouraging their use as health arts.

I doubt most pro-MMAers would find their styles terribly useful in fighting with a jian or spear. So we may simply be comparing apples and oranges.

[windwalker]

I've never met a tai chi player, or any CMA practitioner for that matter, that could punch as hard as a Western style boxer. Not once.

I have met competent CMA fighters who could go up against your average guy and win with certainty. But I've never met one who could face off against a pro-MMAer and win. Now you've dun it.. ..

I don't know if it is a "martial art vs non-martial art" thing so much as an optimal training method versus non-optimal training method thing. Also, most of the Chinese martial arts seem to have been originally designed with weapons use being their primary focus and having been forced into open hand arts by time, technology and local laws. I would finally add that none of this has been helped by the last several decades in which the mainland authorities have gone out of their way to discourage these things as fighting arts and encouraging their use as health arts.

Of the history I've read the art was changed according to need.

The need to eat and feed ones family drove the direction that most teachers took when teaching. People sometimes seem to forget its a business, for， some business is good no need to mess it up.

I doubt most pro-MMAers would find their styles terribly useful in fighting with a jian or spear. So we may simply be comparing apples and oranges.

CMA arts were developed in a certain time period within a context that may or may not exist in today's time.
Most of the teachers I've known understood this and modified accordingly, just as the founders did back in their day.

Tradition
Business
history
non western outlook
health benefits

all factor into what people look for and seek.
Never quite understand how one can engage in a practice with seniors expecting
to learn about how to deal with juniors in a combative way.

The OP question could be asked of any CMA art, is it still a martial art.
The real question might be

"what makes it so"

[origami_itto]

I don't necessarily agree with his synopsis of what "street" is, or rather I don't agree that the situation described represents self defense.

It does fit with the results of an informal study of fight clips on YouTube. They found the vast majority of street fights captured in film were essentially about social dominance. Egos and machismo, essentially, not self defense as I understand the term but just a grown up version of playground games that are easy enough to avoid.

Self defense usually starts without much warning and absolutely no expectation of fair play. Or from another point of view it starts long before an attack begins.

[Steve James]

Taijiquan is a martial art just like Xingyiquan or Shaolinquan. MMA by definition is not "a" martial art; it's a sport that combines different martial arts. Pankration was practiced in ancient Greece, and it combined wrestling, boxing, and kicking. But, it was a sport that we would now call "mma." But, none of these have had much to do with warfare, though all can be used for self-defense.

I grew up in the South Bronx during the times they made movies about life there. In all cases, self-defense was simply survival. I took up martial arts to cope with bullies. I have interacted with many martial artists, and I never felt that I would ever need to defend myself against any one of them "on the street." And, if I did, it wouldn't be about martial arts. Imo, it's because martial artist meant more than just being a fighter. The idea was that you learned to fight so that you didn't have to, but that you could defend yourself if necessary. However, when it was necessary, it was by any means necessary. MMA does not beat knife or gun. Boxing v. wrestling or mma, etc. is an argument about spectator sports. People have been doing it for years.

[Wanderingdragon]

“I've never met a tai chi player, or any CMA practitioner for that matter, that could punch as hard as a Western style boxer. Not once.”

Such a statement is mind boggling to me, who would learn or study a fighting art without knowing or learning how to hit hard. Though I know it is true, in some cases, such a blanket statement is the premise of this thread. CMA is a fighting skill, has it been so watered down to the point that even the teachers cannot fight. Has it really just become so much theater, not where I come from.

In the clip, he ventures that not even xing I or bagua would fare well in the cage, but again I say, only if you haven’t learned your art.

[johnwang]

The clip shows how stupid the Taiji students are and also acting impatiently disrespectful.
AFAIC, this is the best move in Taiji and can fuse very well with me Chicken beng.

笨的像豬頭，在枝流未節的屁地方一直問，
老師年紀大了，真要講打法時愛理不理的。

The teacher's answer was not clear. His explanation can be as simple as:

- Block your opponent's punch.
- Fingers attack under his chin.
- Palm grab his neck.
- Foot lock behind opponent's ankle.
- Push his neck forward, scoop his leg backward.