Double Weighted

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Double Weighted

Postby wiesiek on Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:58 pm

in your clip - arm rising , -adversary allows to lock his arm/elbow joints

i`m sure, that original meanings d.w., cover not just weight distributions.
and
for butterfly whisk could be the answer ...
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby wiesiek on Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:03 pm

ps
maybe Origami "segments of the body" is better description
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby johnwang on Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:12 pm

wiesiek wrote:ps
maybe Origami "segments of the body" is better description

But how to achieve that? Again, if we don't know how to do that, how can we prevent that from happening?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby windwalker on Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:31 pm

With those I work with when we speak of double weight or double light. It refers to the mind and body being in the same place at the same time, or in the case of double light not being there.

For double weight, the body is unable to change due the mind being locked into a forced outcome....ie resistance, the opposite is collapsed.
Some call this treading the knifes edge. The central idea being one of the ability to change.

How not to do it is to keep practicing with more and more pressure stopping when one is locked up, and looking at possible ways not to be.

Although the hundred bodies have not yet employed the
technique in application, the Mind has already solemnly prepared to face the situation and soothingly get into the
situation.



Now that the mind is stirred into motion, although the body has not yet applied itself to the matter
(thereby manifesting technique) the technique is there (in potential form) ready for use. The technique and the
Mind are (both) there. Depending on how the situation changes, the Mind will master over it.
.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:43 pm

the way to do it is to use baguazhang footwork ;D 8-) :-\ :P
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:21 pm

johnwang wrote:
wiesiek wrote:ps
maybe Origami "segments of the body" is better description

But how to achieve that? Again, if we don't know how to do that, how can we prevent that from happening?


If somebody asks me how to break into the middle class the only answer I can give, based on my experience, is get a tech career in the air force and cash in commercially after four years. There may be other ways to do it, but I don't know what they are or how they work.

Likewise, asking that question about double weighting, the only answer I can give is the one that got me to my own understanding, which is train taijiquan earnestly and sincerely. Other disciplines might use other methods and names to describe the same phenomena, ideas, or process.

Going into more detail about the process, a beginning student is pretty much undifferentiated, full everywhere, after some bodywork, perhaps taiji, the student maybe learns to separate top and bottom and left and right.

So to visualize this, draw two perpendicular lines that intersect at your centerline on your hips. That gives you four segments to work with. Top Left, Top Right, Bottom Left and Bottom right. If the top left and bottom right are substantial, the top right and bottom left should be insubstantial. That's not double weighted. If the bottom and top left is substantial, and the top and bottom right is insubstantial, that might be double weighted.

Looking at it from that point of view of the first division of the body there is a go-to demonsration I favor.

A and B stand facing each other in a bow or wuji stance.

A pushes B's left shoulder with his right hand.

B yields, making his shoulder insubstantial, while placing his right hand on A's left shoulder and pushing.

If A does not make his left shoulder insubstantial, he will be knocked off balance and peeled away. The force he's exerting on B's shoulder will be returned through B's structure back to his own and it will push him out. He'll find he has no strength to push with and no ability to change to a more advantageous position unless he can resolve that double-weighted condition in his left shoulder.

There's a few things going on in that example, but double-weightedness is a component of it in two ways.

1: A is substantial on top left and top right, B is insubstantial on the left and substantial on the right.
2: A meets B's substantial push with a substantial body, allowing it to be affected, B meets the substantial push with insubstantial yielding.

If instead of the return described, A makes the contact point substantial, or makes the opposite (right) side insubstantial, then HE is guilty of double-weighting of the second kind there (at least) and will be pushed out.

If you understand I'm sure you'll find some inaccuracy there, but if you don't that should be a useful pointer to the idea. That's just describing four segments, you can analyze it down to like... 18 or so? The shapes and patterns get a little fuzzy conceptually for me still beyond the first four.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:27 pm

the basic how to from a tjq pov is probably just fixed step grasp sparrow's tail cooperative exercise.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:30 pm

windwalker wrote:With those I work with when we speak of double weight or double light. It refers to the mind and body being in the same place at the same time, or in the case of double light not being there.

For double weight, the body is unable to change due the mind being locked into a forced outcome....ie resistance, the opposite is collapsed.
Some call this treading the knifes edge. The central idea being one of the ability to change.

How not to do it is to keep practicing with more and more pressure stopping when one is locked up, and looking at possible ways not to be.


I agree 100. It's primarily mental.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby vagabond on Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:14 pm

I also agree, this is 100% mental

JW, I have no idea what double weighted means
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby johnwang on Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:51 pm

vagabond wrote:JW, I have no idea what double weighted means

To move myself into "double weighted" all by myself without any action from my opponent is what I don't know how to do.

If you force your opponent into a situation that he is "unable to change" as the definition for double weighted, it's easy to understand and easy to do. For example, you twist your opponent body circular and move one of his legs linear.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:51 pm

everything wrote:the basic how to from a tjq pov is probably just fixed step grasp sparrow's tail cooperative exercise.


I would say that the entire body of taijiquan practice concerns it in some way or another. Maybe not overtly, but avoiding it yourself and causing it in others is fundamental. As Windy said, you learn to deal with it with increasing pressure and increasing sophistication through the exercises. The ones I know include solo hand form, four sides, da lu, sanshou, weapons, etc. Literally everything, IMHO, in some way is training you remain balanced and agile, both mentally and physically (in harmony?), under pressure. Then it sort of works like healing. If you know how to heal you know how to kill. Likewise if you know how to not be double-weighted, you know how to make someone else double-weighted. When someone is double-weighted they are very easy to manipulate and beat. So if you are better at making them double-weighted than they are at avoiding it at any given point in time, they get frozen up and in a ready-to-be-beaten posture :).
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby johnwang on Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:00 pm

oragami_itto wrote:if you know how to not be double-weighted, you know how to make someone else double-weighted.

I feel the opposite. I know how to make my opponent double weighted (if unable to change is the definition). But I don't know how to make myself double weighted.

Do you agree that if one trains correctly (no matter what MA system), he will never be double weighted? Do you think Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson ever be in double weighted?
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:38 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:if you know how to not be double-weighted, you know how to make someone else double-weighted.

I feel the opposite. I know how to make my opponent double weighted (if unable to change is the definition). But I don't know how to make myself double weighted.

Again I'll say watch the Richard Clear video I posted, what he does with the cinderblock demo is a pretty good explanation of how to make yourself double weighted.

The two descriptions straight from renowned Yang Masters, again I think aimed at beginners and outsiders, are as follows:
1. Weight evenly divided between the legs. Note that the deeper meaning is that a wuji stance as in beginning taiji is not double weighted if it's properly sunken.
2. Top and bottom on the same side substantial. If you're pushing with your right leg and your right arm, for example. Again note the deeper meaning is that if the internal connections are correct, this isn't necessarily a double-weighted condition, but for the purposes of beginning to condition the body/mind and understand the concept, it's close enough.

It's hard to induce it in yourself because you really need some outside force to see/feel the effect. I like to use doors to work on it. Being mindful of which feet are forward or back, weight bearing or empty, pushing or stationary, which arm is pushing or pulling, etc, I test how I interact with it in various internal and external postures and observe the result. If it's too hard to move I'm double weighted, if it pops open without much movement or muscular exertion then I'm not. Honestly I kinda do that with everything, but big heavy doors are the most rewarding. It's really working on more than just double weight, but that test if it's too heavy to move with the bigger doors is pretty reliable IMHO.

johnwang wrote:Do you agree that if one trains correctly (no matter what MA system), he will never be double weighted? Do you think Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson ever be in double weighted?


I agree that I never say never. There are many ways to train great, reliable, and powerful, balance and agility. There are many ways that training can fail us in the heat of the moment. Neither of them were undefeated. They both fell down.

Boxing in particular pays a great deal of attention to agile footwork and weight shifting, and there isn't much of the direct grappling type contact that I'm familiar with as a means of inducing the condition. I suppose when you're rocked on your heels that's sort of the idea, or in a clinch.

Possibly in missing a punch or falling for a feint, they could be left momentarily flat footed, for example.

Double weight in simplest terms of effect is slow, clumsy, weak, off-balance, stiff, dead (unable to change). How do you induce that in yourself? How can you be more immune to it? How can you induce it in others? It's a fascinating subject for contemplation and study IMHO.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:29 am

oragami_itto wrote:
everything wrote:the basic how to from a tjq pov is probably just fixed step grasp sparrow's tail cooperative exercise.


I would say that the entire body of taijiquan practice concerns it in some way or another. Maybe not overtly, but avoiding it yourself and causing it in others is fundamental. As Windy said, you learn to deal with it with increasing pressure and increasing sophistication through the exercises. The ones I know include solo hand form, four sides, da lu, sanshou, weapons, etc. Literally everything, IMHO, in some way is training you remain balanced and agile, both mentally and physically (in harmony?), under pressure. Then it sort of works like healing. If you know how to heal you know how to kill. Likewise if you know how to not be double-weighted, you know how to make someone else double-weighted. When someone is double-weighted they are very easy to manipulate and beat. So if you are better at making them double-weighted than they are at avoiding it at any given point in time, they get frozen up and in a ready-to-be-beaten posture :).


Almost all sports do this. As I often say. Taijiquan grasp sparrow's tail basic exercise does seem to help. Here is a double weighting that I want to cause. No touch force!

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Re: Double Weighted

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:59 am

oragami_itto wrote:It's hard to induce it in yourself because you really need some outside force to see/feel the effect.

If double weighted (unable to change) can only happen from your opponent's attack, should you spend your training time to learn how to counter his attack so he won't put you in such situation?

For example,

- You move around your opponent that his hands can't touch you, the double weighted will never occur.
- Your opponent sweeps/hooks your leg, you bend your leg an let his leg to go under.
- Your opponent pushes you, you spin your body, and lead him into the emptiness.
- ...

When your opponent's attack put you in double weighted (unable to change), it's not your double weighed problem, it's the problem that you can't counter your opponent's attack.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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