Double Weighted

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Re: Double Weighted

Postby Steve James on Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:56 am

If double weightedness is two adjoining substantial/Yang segments, and its opposite is balanced and agile, then it's opposite/complementary error is double floating - two adjoining insubstantial/Yin segments, the opposite of rooted. That doesn't feel 100% accurate so I expect I'll revise that summation soon


Imo, it is definitely about the relation of yin and yang. However, it's not quite as simple as doubling. Windwalker bought up the terms double-heavy and double-light. If the idea that there is always some yang in yin, and some yin in yang, then double yang doesn't make much sense. There can be too much yang and too little yin. "Double-heavy" is not the same as double-yang, and is its own fault. Double-light, otoh, isn't double yin, and is not considered a fault. The fault would be "floating" --a bad thing. Otoh, double-heavy is not the same as sinking --a good thing.

There's a text attributed to Yang Banhou that goes into this in some depth. You can find it on Brennan's site. But, I'm not sure that the explanation helps, though it offers lots of opportunities for discussion. ;) Anyway, in that regard, I'm with John W. If one can't demonstrate the theory in physical terms, it's just words. That doesn't mean that there is only one way to express or illustrate the theory. In fact, the theory says that the ways to implement it are almost infinite (at least, the number is very large).
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:33 am

Steve James wrote:
If double weightedness is two adjoining substantial/Yang segments, and its opposite is balanced and agile, then it's opposite/complementary error is double floating - two adjoining insubstantial/Yin segments, the opposite of rooted. That doesn't feel 100% accurate so I expect I'll revise that summation soon


Imo, it is definitely about the relation of yin and yang. However, it's not quite as simple as doubling. Windwalker bought up the terms double-heavy and double-light. If the idea that there is always some yang in yin, and some yin in yang, then double yang doesn't make much sense.
It does within the context that I use and others use refering to mind and body. Would post clips but have found them to illicite more confusion as people tend not to understand whats going on.


There can be too much yang and too little yin. "Double-heavy" is not the same as double-yang, and is its own fault. Double-light, otoh, isn't double yin, and is not considered a fault. The fault would be "floating" --a bad thing. Otoh, double-heavy is not the same as sinking --a good thing.

Double heavy, is the same as double yang, or as what most refer to as being double weighted when the concept of physical
weight is taken out one can have ones weight distributed any way they like, and still not be double weighted or be single weighted as some might try and yet be double weighted. Again depending on the context and method that one uses to describe this.


There's a text attributed to Yang Banhou that goes into this in some depth. You can find it on Brennan's site. But, I'm not sure that the explanation helps, though it offers lots of opportunities for discussion. ;) Anyway, in that regard, I'm with John W. If one can't demonstrate the theory in physical terms, it's just words. That doesn't mean that there is only one way to express or illustrate the theory. In fact, the theory says that the ways to implement it are almost infinite (at least, the number is very large).


The Yang Banhou text also explains this, as you've mentioned its one theory among many. It's very demonstable and repeatable easy to understand in person but hard to keep in usage as it tends to be counterintuitive.

Very much agree with the functional aspects being the deciding factor over which theory used to describe an event.
Having said this, some methods and theories allow for things to be done or understanding that's not possible looking at them using another theory / model.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:10 am

Steve James wrote:
If double weightedness is two adjoining substantial/Yang segments, and its opposite is balanced and agile, then it's opposite/complementary error is double floating - two adjoining insubstantial/Yin segments, the opposite of rooted. That doesn't feel 100% accurate so I expect I'll revise that summation soon


Imo, it is definitely about the relation of yin and yang. However, it's not quite as simple as doubling. Windwalker bought up the terms double-heavy and double-light. If the idea that there is always some yang in yin, and some yin in yang, then double yang doesn't make much sense.
It does within the context that I use and others use refering to mind and body. Would post clips but have found them to illicite more confusion as people tend not to understand whats going on.


There can be too much yang and too little yin. "Double-heavy" is not the same as double-yang, and is its own fault. Double-light, otoh, isn't double yin, and is not considered a fault. The fault would be "floating" --a bad thing. Otoh, double-heavy is not the same as sinking --a good thing.

Double heavy, is the same as double yang, or as what most refer to as being double weighted when the concept of physical
weight is taken out one can have ones weight distributed any way they like, and still not be double weighted or be single weighted as some might try and yet be double weighted. Again depending on the context and method that one uses to describe this.


There's a text attributed to Yang Banhou that goes into this in some depth. You can find it on Brennan's site. But, I'm not sure that the explanation helps, though it offers lots of opportunities for discussion. ;) Anyway, in that regard, I'm with John W. If one can't demonstrate the theory in physical terms, it's just words. That doesn't mean that there is only one way to express or illustrate the theory. In fact, the theory says that the ways to implement it are almost infinite (at least, the number is very large).


There's a set of related conditions described in Chapter 22 of the Yang 40, as listed in Douglass Wile's "Lost T'ai-chi Classics from the Late Ch'ing Dynasty". Slightly different translation is in WIle's "Yang Family Secret Transmissions", Chapter VI
Errors: Double Weightedness and Double Floating
Not Errors: Double Sinking and Double Lightness

Then they get into a complex breakdown of combinations of partial, half, and too heavy, light, floating and sinking that are errors.

So the "double", to me, appears to be a different meaning than "twice as much as you need", that would be included under the "too".

And yes, the part that I forgot to take in account is that where there is Yang, there is a corresponding Yin. So if we're double heavy by the definition of adjacent Yang, then it stands to reason there's a corresponding set of adjacent Yin. Going back to my A and B example. If A is pushing B on the left, B yields and returns back to A's left, A is less substantial on that shoulder, but no so insubstantial that it can't be pushed. The two upper quadrants are Yang. That means the root is easily severed and they're pushed out, because the legs/root are where the Yin goes, making it weak. If the upper body were Left Yang/Right Yin and the lower were Left Yin, Right Yang, then the force would be more likely to be redirected.

In the breakdown, any floating is indicative of an error half, partial, or double. Described as drifting, vague, not circular, and not light. Empty form that lacks a root, I suppose, best encapsulates it. You can be half floating, I suppose upper or L/R. Partial floating, one segment of the body floating. Or double, two or more body segments floating, most likely completely floating.

It's what good Peng does to your partner, floats them like a boat on the water. Shaky, unsteady, frozen, but different than double-weighted. Double-weighted is heavy, slow, sluggish. Double-floating is shaky and disconnected, like slipping on ice standing still.

Both of these ideas, beyond being theories, are just ways to describe what is already happening when you use taijiquan. After practicing a while and seeing that every time you do A, you get result B, you might start thinking there's some logic to it. These theories are exactly what I use to think about the exchanges occuring in push hands to work out how to deal with various attacks. Where is my opponent substantial, where is he insubstantial, where could I add a little extra yang to knock him down. How am I being double weighted to present an easy target. It works.

windwalker wrote:some methods and theories allow for things to be done or understanding that's not possible looking at them using another theory / model.


Definitely. That's the rub of the discussion. Shaui Jiao doesn't have the theory and doesn't do what it's possible to do with the theory, per se. Directly at least. Pretty much everything has a basic theory of how to avoid it-by-another-name, but I don't know of anything else that uses the particular model to achieve the particular results in other people. Also, yes, it's much easier to do than talk about.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:23 am

everything wrote:Almost all sports do this. As I often say. Taijiquan grasp sparrow's tail basic exercise does seem to help. Here is a double weighting that I want to cause. No touch force!

Image
everything wrote:Lots of "soft" and grappling arts have this idea, but don't seem to go as crazy trying to emphasize it. You have to go through a period of learning by trial and error and using force against force until your body realizes that's not as efficient. In some ways that's probably a much better way than being idealistic from the start.

Sports and arts do emphasize it. Messi does not just learn through "trial and error and using force against force." "No touch force" is not "force against force." Messi couldn't do what he does at 80% full sprint without specific training.

Messi's training includes drilling Outside/Inside cut (e.g., balance, alignment, etc), proprioception and balance exercises (e.g., balance ball, bosu ball, agility exercises, etc.), reading and timing the opponent (e.g., opponent shows shoulder, balance, weight shift, etc.), etc.

It's not just a theory or words. It's an important concept that is emphasized, drilled and used against non-compliant opponents.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:38 am

oragami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:It's hard to induce it in yourself because you really need some outside force to see/feel the effect.

If double weighted can only happen from your opponent's attack, should you spend your training time to learn how to counter his attack so he won't put you in such situation?


Why yes, that's a great idea. I call that Taijiquan. :D


Appledog wrote:You seem to have done a 180.


Appearances can be decieving, I suppose. But I'm not above changing my position as I increase my understanding.

Appledog wrote:First you said that it's hard to induce it in yourself because you really need some outside force to get the effect, but then you buy into Johnwang's premise that it can only happen from an attack. This isn't true at all.

I may have worded it poorly. As I mentioned later, gravity is sufficient, but requires some particular awareness to achieve. As you mention below, begin with form - move your arm like this, put your weight here, turn your waist there, etc. That teaches proper balance and alignment, the opposite of double-weightedness. By coming to know what is correct, we understand better what is incorrect. Through that understanding in ourselves, we come to know it in others and can use it to our advantage in conflict.

Appledog wrote:There is a difference, of course, between being locked up and being sent off via a small push, and the entrance into such a situation. But the root cause is in and of itself double weightedness. Since Taijiquan enters along a curved line, the entire curved line itself may compress and expand on the fly, seeking out any sort of broken or frozen shape to exploit. The actuation of this to the point where the opponent can no longer plausibly change or resist is the lock or the push out. However, unless you can get to the root of the problem you won't be able to prevent this from happening in your own shape.

This is done, basically, by specialized qigong exercises designed to fast-track your personal body shape into the proper body shape for the form and/or to just do the form (which might take a bit longer but works just the same). You really can't say more other than to underline the necessity of doing the form first before push hands (for precisely the reason outlined above) or to give personalized instruction by examining the student's shape and then giving them specialized (not "secret", just personalized) exercises. This is why "Only I was taught these exercises by the master," because only you were making the specific mistakes you were making. Kind of ironic then, that all of those people who claim to have been taught what no one else was taught, really just are parading the fact that they were a low level student who needed to rely on crutches to approach the form. I jest, the crutches are just time saving devices (unless you couldn't get there with the form only, but in that case it becomes a different martial art as you rely on the qigongs versus the form itself to guide your progress in the long-term).

So as to what double weighted is and how to get rid of it, I just explained exactly what it is and how to get rid of it, but in order to understand you need to have extensive experience in the form to understand how your body changes and the things that you really need to know as you go into push hands. Which means you need to know what it is before you will understand my explanation. So allow me to give a quick layman's explanation. Double weight is the physical-mental inability to change in order to maintain your taijiquan shape during motion, which directly results from not moving from the one-point, but instead having more than one "local" point of force origin. For example when someone tenses their fist during a punch or if they step up onto their toes during a kick. Or for example throwing a sling but with a tiny weight attached to one of the strings; it doesn't work at speed but instead it breaks at speed, and you do it slowly to seek out and prevent such breakage (for example).


I don't disagree with any of that at all.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby johnwang on Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:37 am

Steve James wrote: If one can't demonstrate the theory in physical terms, it's just words.

Can we discuss further from this point of view?

In another threads Jin and Jing Tan Li threads, I put up clip for discussion. I also ask others to put up clips. Am I the only person in RSF who like to see concrete application example?
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:53 am

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote: If one can't demonstrate the theory in physical terms, it's just words.

Can we discuss further from this point of view?

In another threads Jin and Jing Tan Li threads, I put up clip for discussion. I also ask others to put up clips. Am I the only person in RSF who like to see concrete application example?


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Re: Double Weighted

Postby johnwang on Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:06 am

oragami_itto wrote:https://youtu.be/Uu4am3jBiLY

To wipe your opponent's neck ("抹(Mo) – Wiping") and lead him into the emptiness is a good strategy.



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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:15 am

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:

Wipe your opponent's neck and lead him into the emptiness is a good strategy.



Sure, and the compromised structure looks very similar, whether you're pulling their neck into it or luring it in by yielding.

In taijiquan you'd generally avoid that because it''s very overt and obvious what you're trying to do, which makes it easier to counter, but it happens, right. Didn't we have a great discussion about that half-tie in push hands a few weeks ago?
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby Yeung on Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:15 am

Just a point about single force before people confused with yin yang, etc. Paul Brennan translated Zhuo Li (拙力)as awkward effort, and that single force is not Zhuo Li as “most important of all to put forth no awkward effort”.

Part of Section 3 of Wang Xiangzhai's "The Correct Path of Yiquan" translated by Paul Brennan:
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... of-yiquan/
求勁之法,慢優於快,緩勝於急,而尤以不用拙力(zhuo Li)為最妙,蓋運動之時,須使全體之關節,任其自然,不稍有淤滯之處,骨須靈活,筋須伸展,肉須舒放,血須川流,如井之泉脈然,如是方能有一身之法,一貫之力,而本力亦不外溢。

In methods of seeking power, slowness is superior to speed, leisure overcomes urgency, and it is most important of all to put forth no awkward effort. When moving, you must get the joints of your whole body to be natural, without the slightest stagnation. Your bones have to be lively. Your sinews have to be extended. Your muscles have to be comfortable. Your blood has to flow like the underground channels of a well. In this way, you will then be able to have a whole-bodied technique, a concentrated force without the main part of your force getting dissipated.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby johnwang on Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:32 am

oragami_itto wrote:In taijiquan you'd generally avoid that ...

- You and your opponent both have right leg forward.
- Your opponent punches your face with his right.
- You block his punch with your right.
- His right hand slides down to your wrist.
- His left hand push on your elbow joint.
- His right hand move toward your neck.

How do you prevent that from happening?

You can almost write a book about "How to prevent your opponent's hand to wipe (mop) on your neck". This Taiji training goal will lead you toward a new direction.

Is it more fun to talk about application than just theory? ;D
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:55 am

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:In taijiquan you'd generally avoid that ...

- You and your opponent both have right leg forward.
- Your opponent punches your face with his right.
- You block his punch with your right.
- His right hand slides down to your wrist.
- His left hand push on your elbow joint.
- His right hand move toward your neck.

How do you prevent that from happening?

To name a posture, repulse monkey. I retreat on the left while sticking to the arm and pulling, while attacking on the right. But I mean talk is just that.

You can almost write a book about "How to prevent your opponent's hand to wipe (mop) on your neck". This Taiji training goal will lead you toward a new direction.

Is it more fun to talk about application than just theory? ;D


This theory is the mother of a thousand offensive and defensive applications. It's the principle that particular applications are built on.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby wiesiek on Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:33 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
wiesiek wrote:
johnwang wrote:Is this double weighted?



-bow-
thank you JW, excellent ex.

@ Origami, what do you mean by "totally"?
are they BOTH d. weighted?


For a second, yeah. They both meet and try a throw, at first they can't get it off, that's the double weighted part. It resolved pretty quick though. The one who found the way through it picked up the other one.


sorry to be late with this comment , the New Year Eve took me more time than usual :D

counter on John clip is based on lowering center of gravity bellow attacker.
Weight distribution between the legs is not the factor, in such position you may move it quite easy ad change accordingly to his move.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby wiesiek on Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:37 pm

ps
and attacker is doomed if didn`t switch direction of the attack in this very moment when he feels "weight bellow" and try to continue .
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:38 pm

marvin8 wrote:
everything wrote:Almost all sports do this. As I often say. Taijiquan grasp sparrow's tail basic exercise does seem to help. Here is a double weighting that I want to cause. No touch force!

Image
everything wrote:Lots of "soft" and grappling arts have this idea, but don't seem to go as crazy trying to emphasize it. You have to go through a period of learning by trial and error and using force against force until your body realizes that's not as efficient. In some ways that's probably a much better way than being idealistic from the start.

Sports and arts do emphasize it. Messi does not just learn through "trial and error and using force against force." "No touch force" is not "force against force." Messi couldn't do what he does at 80% full sprint without specific training.

Messi's training includes drilling Outside/Inside cut (e.g., balance, alignment, etc), proprioception and balance exercises (e.g., balance ball, bosu ball, agility exercises, etc.), reading and timing the opponent (e.g., opponent shows shoulder, balance, weight shift, etc.), etc.

It's not just a theory or words. It's an important concept that is emphasized, drilled and used against non-compliant opponents.


I think that's true, but Messi didn't go around with this "double weighted" theory to develop this ability. The "force against force" I'm talking about is in beginner MA but also at Olympic level (through observation). If you push, I also sometimes push, and same with pull. After a while, you start to realize "if you push, I pull" works much more easily. They do say that in judo, but they don't go crazy with "double weighting" lectures. In grasp sparrow's tail (cooperative), you are seeking the right quality all the time. In judo they allow you to try in randori and start to learn for yourself. Sometimes you can do the double weighting if you feel like it. Of course in a sport setting where you are required to take initiative (vs. in taijiquan theory if your opponent does not move, you do not move), sometimes you're going to use some force vs. force and it might be a good idea. Marcelo Garcia in open weight submission grappling is probably a much better example. He can't afford to have double weighting. He'll get crushed. But I don't think BJJ lectures people about that. ?
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