Double Weighted

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Re: Double Weighted

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:00 pm

everything wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
everything wrote:Almost all sports do this. As I often say. Taijiquan grasp sparrow's tail basic exercise does seem to help. Here is a double weighting that I want to cause. No touch force!

Image
everything wrote:Lots of "soft" and grappling arts have this idea, but don't seem to go as crazy trying to emphasize it. You have to go through a period of learning by trial and error and using force against force until your body realizes that's not as efficient. In some ways that's probably a much better way than being idealistic from the start.

Sports and arts do emphasize it. Messi does not just learn through "trial and error and using force against force." "No touch force" is not "force against force." Messi couldn't do what he does at 80% full sprint without specific training.

Messi's training includes drilling Outside/Inside cut (e.g., balance, alignment, etc), proprioception and balance exercises (e.g., balance ball, bosu ball, agility exercises, etc.), reading and timing the opponent (e.g., opponent shows shoulder, balance, weight shift, etc.), etc.

It's not just a theory or words. It's an important concept that is emphasized, drilled and used against non-compliant opponents.


I think that's true, but Messi didn't go around with this "double weighted" theory to develop this ability.

Messi was taught how to get opponents out of position with footwork (e.g., outside/inside cut, etc), balance, alignment, change of direction, etc.

everything wrote:The "force against force" I'm talking about is in beginner MA but also at Olympic level (through observation). If you push, I also sometimes push, and same with pull. After a while, you start to realize "if you push, I pull" works much more easily. They do say that in judo, but they don't go crazy with "double weighting" lectures. In grasp sparrow's tail (cooperative), you are seeking the right quality all the time. In judo they allow you to try in randori and start to learn for yourself.

Judo is based on kuzushi, borrow opponents force, etc. Good judo instructors teach judo principles, strategies, etc, rather than "learn for yourself."

everything wrote:Sometimes you can do the double weighting if you feel like it. Of course in a sport setting where you are required to take initiative (vs. in taijiquan theory if your opponent does not move, you do not move), sometimes you're going to use some force vs. force and it might be a good idea.

Sometimes you lure, asking hand or give resistance to set up an opponent. Then, change direction and use opponent's force against himself.

everything wrote:Marcelo Garcia in open weight submission grappling is probably a much better example. He can't afford to have double weighting. He'll get crushed. But I don't think BJJ lectures people about that. ?

BJJ teaches position before submission, leverage, etc, not force against force.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:41 pm

wiesiek wrote:sorry to be late with this comment , the New Year Eve took me more time than usual :D

counter on John clip is based on lowering center of gravity bellow attacker.
Weight distribution between the legs is not the factor, in such position you may move it quite easy ad change accordingly to his move.


Yes, as I understand it, the weight distribution is the literal meaning, not the jargon meaning. Similar to peng and an. They have a special meaning in tai chi. In this case beyond the weight distribution.

In John's clip the double weight part is the part that precedes the counter. Dropping the center of gravity is what alleviates the double-weighted condition and allows him to complete his technique.

It's hard to understand approaching it initially from an intellectual perspective, I guess. Makes much more sense as a description of a process and condition my body is familiar with through training.

Chen Xiao Wang explains it well here.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:14 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:- Your opponent uses head lock to press your body downward.
- You press his leg to push him down.
- When your opponent resists against your downward pressing (he try to raise up), you borrow his resistance force, and lift him up.

If your opponent want to

- sink down, you help him to sink down further.
- raise up, you help him to raise up further.

It meets 100% the borrow force principle. The borrow force doesn't have to be horizontal. It can be vertical as well.


I agree and that's 100% valid in my opinion. You use the change from substantial to insubstantial and then substantial in the other direction.

Taijiquan as I understand it uses the same principle but seeks to avoid that moment it being bound up. Because it could potentially resolve either way it's best to just avoid it altogether.

I believe the idea and what makes taijiquan different and potentially effective is that most approaches to conflict involve that clashing together and resolution process. The effective taijiquan practitioner presents an apparent target for that, but never lets the opponent achieve it. They think they are getting it and chase it, but really they are gently coaxed into a bad position.

Ideally in that sort of situation I would put downward or sideways pressure then release and apply pressure in the other direction while they are still raising their force to resist the first pressure, vs binding then reversing. Both work but the first way is much stronger.

Do you believe this hip throw is double weighted?

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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:38 pm

The throw itself, no not really.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:59 pm

kuzushi, position before submission, and cuts, aren't the same as trying to not have "double weighting" even though they can result in not having double weighting or causing double weighting. But we don't need to always seek a perfect yin/yang balance or no yang vs. yang to achieve any of those things. Usually in high level judo matches, the kuzushi looks a bit forced. The taijiquan mandate seems more idealistic (for better or for worse).

Off topic, I'm not sure Messi was ever "taught" as far as his skill level goes. Basic moves, sure. Perhaps we could say he learned from playing against his brothers, cousins, dad. I'm not sure who actually teaches a genius. Who taught Einstein? I'm not sure people can claim to have really taught him. The best kid I coached (national team level in another sport) - I'd show him something, then the next week he'd show me much better variations I can't do or conceive that I could try to learn to do. I didn't teach him that. I'm not qualified. I don't even understand that. The highest level of push hands I felt - felt like that. Incomprehensible. I've never felt that at judo or bjj. Great and fully understandable skill, yes. Nothing "alien". Taijiquan theory seems to want to seek the alien. But that's not possible. You can't teach an ordinary student anything extraordinary. Even if you're Messi or Michael Jordan, you can't really impart your genius to someone else. The kid prodigy composers just hear music all the time in their head with all the different instruments. If they don't write it down, it'll be lost. It just comes out. You can't teach that.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby Trip on Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:19 pm

everything wrote:They do say that in judo, but they don't go crazy with "double weighting" lectures.

Double Weighted is an important theory, but they don't go crazy with the double weighted lectures in Traditional Taiji teaching either.

Most teachers will tell you you're over thinking it.
Double weighting is, partly, simply about {conscious} agility.
A basic teaching to build on. Having an awareness of there being an option to resistance, to take a different step, a different path.
It's a simple teaching for a Taiji student to build on.

A mental awareness that a yin or yang {physical} step
or an advance or to retreat the body
is always available to you in the early stages of contact.

They teach it, then move on to how it works in physical practice.
It's really simple.

As an example:
It's has something to do with Conscious Movement.
It's difficult to rotate with double pressure
If you can distinguish “Double Pressure/Resistance” early...

Once you become aware of it
Distinguishing it in the early stages of contact there's an opportunity to take advantage,
you have a chance to lead your opponent to emptiness.
And make him pay!

If you don't practice it, it shows.
If you do practice it, that shows.
Last edited by Trip on Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:34 pm

I think that makes sense. It's not some kind of extreme profoundness. It's basic. I claim and experienced that tjq emphasizes the idea more in theory and in practice, but maybe that's not at all true. It seems true in MA. OTOH in youth basketball, I assisted a coach who often said "set the defense". Essentially that meant to do a feint that set the opponents' feet. In that moment, they were "double weighted" and "flat footed" and not able to change/react to your real move. In that sense, before you do kuzushi, you do a fake kuzushi. I push you to try to get you to push back (double yang) so that I can borrow your push.

eh.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:04 pm

everything wrote:kuzushi, position before submission, and cuts, aren't the same as trying to not have "double weighting" even though they can result in not having double weighting or causing double weighting. But we don't need to always seek a perfect yin/yang balance or no yang vs. yang to achieve any of those things.

My words are out of context and you left out the etc:
marvin8 wrote:Messi was taught how to get opponents out of position with footwork (e.g., outside/inside cut, etc), balance, alignment, change of direction, etc.

Soccer (as well as other sports and arts) teach/drill balance and alignment (not double weight) in order to perform quick change of directions, get opponent double weighted and attack the goal.

From oragami_itto's previous post, Mizner is double weighted according to the boxing trainer in the latter video:

Image

In the following video, the boxing trainer teaches concepts of making the opponent miss (rather than block) punches to disrupt his balance (double weight), be aligned and not off balance (double weighted) otherwise one is open to opponent's punches, one doesn't want to make the opponent only miss but one wants to make the opponent pay (seamless transition from defense to offense using timing and balance (not double weighted), always in position (not double weighted) to defend the next punch because opponent has two hands, don't lock oneself into a position (not double weighted) because opponent will throw several punches and one of them will land and @ 5:12 (bending over like Mizner), "I am completely off balance open for an uppercut or hook (double weighted):"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkUrxd_lSqY

everything wrote:Usually in high level judo matches, the kuzushi looks a bit forced. The taijiquan mandate seems more idealistic (for better or for worse).

Does push hands competition look "a bit forced?" Judo is referred to as the gentle way—gentleness overcomes hardness:
marvin8 wrote:Judo is based on kuzushi, borrow opponents force, etc. . . .

Sometimes you lure, asking hand or give resistance to set up an opponent. Then, change direction and use opponent's force against himself.


everything wrote:Off topic, I'm not sure Messi was ever "taught" as far as his skill level goes. Basic moves, sure. Perhaps we could say he learned from playing against his brothers, cousins, dad. I'm not sure who actually teaches a genius. Who taught Einstein? I'm not sure people can claim to have really taught him. The best kid I coached (national team level in another sport) - I'd show him something, then the next week he'd show me much better variations I can't do or conceive that I could try to learn to do. I didn't teach him that. I'm not qualified. I don't even understand that. The highest level of push hands I felt - felt like that. Incomprehensible. I've never felt that at judo or bjj. Great and fully understandable skill, yes. Nothing "alien". Taijiquan theory seems to want to seek the alien. But that's not possible. You can't teach an ordinary student anything extraordinary. Even if you're Messi or Michael Jordan, you can't really impart your genius to someone else. The kid prodigy composers just hear music all the time in their head with all the different instruments. If they don't write it down, it'll be lost. It just comes out. You can't teach that.

Both Messi and Jordan were taught by professional coaches and trainers to understand and train the principles, strategies, steps and moves of their sport for use against non-compliant opponents in competition.

Push hands is limited by it's rules. Judo and BJJ are competitive sports. In push hands competition, I have not seen superior skills over judo, BJJ, wrestling, etc.

marvin8 wrote:If you can discuss what tai chi's "double weight" theory adds or how it is different, I would be interested in hearing.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby Trip on Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:18 am

everything wrote:...In that sense, before you do kuzushi, you do a fake kuzushi. I push you to try to get you to push back (double yang) so that I can borrow your push.


everything wrote:eh.


Eh. :)

But I'd be remiss if I didn't caution, intellectual understanding is not enough.
That’s just one possible use to build on.
So, physically play with that until you run out of options with it
and you’re likely to uncover the other useful options of this one particular Taiji concept.

And then tie that to the whole.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:50 am

everything wrote:I think that makes sense. It's not some kind of extreme profoundness. It's basic. I claim and experienced that tjq emphasizes the idea more in theory and in practice, but maybe that's not at all true. It seems true in MA. OTOH in youth basketball, I assisted a coach who often said "set the defense". Essentially that meant to do a feint that set the opponents' feet. In that moment, they were "double weighted" and "flat footed" and not able to change/react to your real move. In that sense, before you do kuzushi, you do a fake kuzushi. I push you to try to get you to push back (double yang) so that I can borrow your push.

eh.


Well it's not really any more or less profound than, say shuai jiao's three points of contact it whatever. Just a way to think about what's going on. It gets more useful the more internalized you've got it and the better your taijiquan is.

Last thing I want to say on it, honestly because it's been beat to death and if you don't get it by now you're not going to, is the planes.

With the double weight between the feet you're essentially locked in a horizontal plane by gravity. With the addition of other outside forces you can now get locked in vertical planes.

Also the division of the body, you can divide top and bottom, then left and right for the four segments I described, then you can divide those into front and back and you've got eight segments to consider, you can go further but for the sake of discussion we'll just stop there.

Wherever there is Yang, there is a corresponding Yin. If you put Force into yin spots and turn them even a little more Yang, you can induce double weighting. Try it out sometime. There's eight targets, maybe look for the rest
Last edited by oragami_itto on Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby cloudz on Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:03 am

Damn this madness, I thought it was about who ate the most pies. :D

happy new year ladies
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby Steve James on Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:19 am

I think the theory in the boxing video is clearer than the tcc examples. I think when he shows the fault of leaning back, it's a good example of being double-weighted. However, he also mentions Mayweather, and that he leans back. Ali did it too. But, they weren't double-weighted when they did it because they were able to change.

Easy example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pOCFuBDKDI

I think it might be helpful to compare the structures of the tcc practitioners and the boxers. Well, I also think that strategy and tactics are also useful to study.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:24 am

Mayweather leads you to emptiness.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:26 am

And Happy New Year!
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby Appledog on Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:20 am

oragami_itto wrote:I don't disagree with any of that at all.


Thanks. it does bother me however that my explanation didn't end the thread. Trip touched on what I meant to say; that double-weightedness is really just a straw-man argument. When people are double weighted in the practice of taijiquan, their form is simply wrong, i.e. from the basic outset, their teacher didn't know how to teach them, or maybe they are a bad student. Thinking about the problem I cannot understand how a student can remain double weighted and still have practiced taiji a lot. I mean, nobody is perfect, but not to understand the concept seems almost insane to me, if someone has been practicing properly for a number of years.

marvin8 wrote:From oragami_itto's previous post, Mizner is double weighted according to the boxing trainer in the latter video:

Image


This video is actually incredible. This demonstrates a mistake so fundamental and colossal I am unsure how to describe what is wrong with what I am seeing. Edit: I mean, I would be leary of even giving it to him that it is for the sake of training, this one actually made me look twice, Im not saying Mizner doesn't have anything interesting to offer but come on, everyone can see this is a mistake in training right? https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... -the-Issue
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