Double Weighted

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Double Weighted

Postby Steve James on Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:05 am

Hmm, if the video showed his feet, then there might be a basis for discussion. Otoh, it's obvious and necessary that the guy's "body weight" is transferred from (in this case) mostly his front foot to mostly his rear foot. In the CMC description, he'd be "double weighted" when his body weight is equally distributed between both feet. In fact, it's not possible to avoid that definition of double-weighting when one shifts weight from one foot to the other.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby LaoDan on Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:33 am

“Double weighting” is a topic that has so many differing perspectives that it is probably impossible to come to consensus on, but here is my take. Since nobody linked to my article I guess that either the article was not read, or posters on this thread do not agree with my definition, but for those who have not read my article, it is posted here:
http://slantedflying.com/be-the-ball/

I view it more in terms of the interaction with an opponent than I do about the weight distribution in one’s own feet (although that can sometimes also be considered as DW, for example when leaning against something and pushing equally with both legs). If one wanted to address it as a quality of the individual irrespective of the interaction with an opponent, then I would probably use the following analogy: If one is using a structure like being a face of a cube, then one is probably DW; but if one’s shape is like a sphere rather than a cube, then they are probably not DW since the sphere can easily “drop one side” to avoid being DW (it is more difficult for the side of a cube to do this).
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:58 am

Once when doing push hands (very light, not much pressure), I was holding my arms in a horizontal circle. When my partner pushed on one arm, I felt energy travel around this circle, with the pushed arm as yin, and the other arm as yang. My partner's push would initiate this energy "circuit" and I just felt his push sort of "transmitting" to my other arm to him. This is the closest I've come to using qigong in a (tiny) ma context. Biomechanically, maybe we were double weighted in the feet, but energetically his push just went around to the other side for some reason. I don't know what it would've felt like if he pushed evenly on both arms (I seem to recall he pushed more on one side ... maybe not but one side felt yin and other side felt yang). Nothing to do with the feet afaik.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby charles on Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:37 am

oragami_itto wrote:I don't know, what do you think?


Not so fast. Over the course of 7 pages, you've stated what double-weighted means. Here's a chance to apply that understanding to a simple posture/move that everyone knows and is found in every Taiji form in one variation or another. I'm asking you to think about it and apply your understanding to that common posture/move.

Given that nearly every practitioner of Taijiquan practices some kind of form, and nearly every form contains the posture/move in question, and that most experienced practitioners have practiced this posture/move hundreds or thousands of times, the answer should just roll off one's tongue, right?
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby charles on Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:48 am

Steve James wrote:Hmm, if the video showed his feet, then there might be a basis for discussion.


What additional information would being able to see his feet provide relevant to being "double-weighted" or not? If you prefer, choose a video of the move that shows the practitioner's feet and discuss that one.

Otoh, it's obvious and necessary that the guy's "body weight" is transferred from (in this case) mostly his front foot to mostly his rear foot. In the CMC description, he'd be "double weighted" when his body weight is equally distributed between both feet. In fact, it's not possible to avoid that definition of double-weighting when one shifts weight from one foot to the other.


That suggests one (or more) of the following four things:

1. the definition that double weighted is having equal weight on each foot is of little practical use,

2. the concept, itself, of double weighting is of little practical use, despite what the Classics have to say about it,

3. since it impossible to shift weight (fully) from one foot to the other without passing through a point where the weight is equally distributed, then it is impossible to avoid being double weighted, despite the Classics stating that double weighting is an error that should be avoided,

4. To avoid having equal weight in each foot - a CMC definition of double weighted - one should avoid shifting weight from one foot to the other, which would prevent "normal" stepping.

Which is it?
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:00 pm

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I don't know, what do you think?


Not so fast. Over the course of 7 pages, you've stated what double-weighted means. Here's a chance to apply that understanding to a simple posture/move that everyone knows and is found in every Taiji form in one variation or another. I'm asking you to think about it and apply your understanding to that common posture/move.


Over the course of 7 pages I've already addressed the paradox inherent in the initial description of double weighting as the weight evenly divided between the feet. I've even posted two videos, one featuring Richard Clear, and the other featuring Chen Xiao Wang that address that point directly. I've addressed it myself. If you want to know what I think of it, go look at all of that. If you want to know what use I think the theory is, that's also spelled out in detail. Despite appearances, I do sometimes reach a limit for the number of times I'll repeat myself.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby charles on Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:14 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Over the course of 7 pages I've already addressed the paradox inherent in the initial description of double weighting as the weight evenly divided between the feet.


I didn't ask about or comment on weight distribution. I posted a video of a guy doing "Roll back" and asked people to consider whether or not the practitioner is double-weighted, using whatever definition of double-weighted they choose.

If you want to know what use I think the theory is, that's also spelled out in detail.


Yes, thanks, you did.

Despite appearances, I do sometimes reach a limit for the number of times I'll repeat myself.


I'm not asking you to repeat yourself. I'm asking you to apply what you stated to a simple, common, well-known example from the core practice of Taijiquan. So far, I don't think you have done that in the way I'm asking.

The reason that I'm asking is that it gets to the core of practical, everyday practice. It takes it out of the realm of abstract discussion and into what we, collectively, have been taught by our teachers, and, likely, highlights the failure of much of the teaching many of us have received. In my opinion, that's where the meat of the discussion really is. I'd be happy for you to be part of that discussion, if you are willing. Since you started this thread, if you are not interested in that discussion, I'll stop here.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:16 pm

Honestly, I can't tell if he is double weighted or not. It just looks like bad taijiquan.

The Theory (Why is the beginning posture not double weighted? Why is it not double weighted when you shift your weight from one leg to the other?)


The Practical Application
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby windwalker on Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:44 pm

This is what happens when one is double weighted.
It also accordes with how I and some others use this term to explain whats happening.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:55 pm

windwalker wrote:This is what happens when one is double weighted.
It also accordes with how I and some others use this term to explain whats happening.


This is why I don't like the PH game. If you push me, I can borrow your force, jump back, run back to my car, get my hand gun, and come back to shoot you.

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I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:17 pm

windwalker wrote:This is what happens when one is double weighted.
It also accordes with how I and some others use this term to explain whats happening.


You mean when he's bouncing off of CXW, when CXW stumbles, or when he catches CXW off guard with that crashing in and makes him stumble back?

johnwang wrote:This is why I don't like the PH game. If you push me, I can borrow your force, jump back, run back to my car, get my hand gun, and come back to shoot you.


Well if you're THAT MUCH of a sore loser, maybe PH isn't for you?
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby Steve James on Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:27 pm

What additional information would being able to see his feet provide relevant to being "double-weighted" or not? If you prefer, choose a video of the move that shows the practitioner's feet and discuss that one.


You posted a video and asked where the guy was double-weighted. I said that, using the definition that was given by CMC --which specified 'weight evenly divided between the feet'-- then one couldn't tell from a video that didn't show the player's feet. Iow, the video did not provide enough information to answer your question about him.

Your other points address the usability of the concept, since, during a shift of bodyweight from one foot to another, there's always a point where the weight is evenly divided. Iow, if the weight is distributed *80/20" between front and back foot, then to get to "20/80", it'll be necessary to go through the "50/50" distribution. And, using that simplistic definition, one can't stand in mabu and not be double-weighted. So, either it's a Zenoic paradox, or double-weighting is not simply a matter of having equal weight distribution.

Afa as putting the concept into practice, I've said from the start that teaching someone to avoid double-weighting is like trying to explain a negative. If I told a fighter "don't let your opponent punch you in the face," it wouldn't be of much use if I couldn't tell him how to avoid it. Better yet, I'd tell him how to keep his hands up. I'd even be able to give him a method to train how to do it.

Having one's weight evenly divided is (imho) not the fault. The fault is not being able to change from that position. I.e., one idea is to get the opponent into a double-weighted situation, when you are not. For ex., in the Dalu exercise, one's "shoulder stroke" intends to hit the opponent while he is double-weighted. His response should be to shift his weight. Iow, to not be double-weighted when that shoulder stroke arrives.

However one looks at or defines it, double-weightedness implies stagnation, which is not the same as stillness.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby windwalker on Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:47 pm

"You mean when he's bouncing off of CXW, when CXW stumbles, or when he catches CXW off guard with that crashing in and makes him stumble back?"

In my earlier post I explained the concepts of double weight as we use it, is between mind and body with double weighting to mean that both are in the same place at the same time.

This prevents one being able to change.

In the clip cxw is not able to change, which is why in the context used he either bounces back or the other one bounces back from their own force. This means he can not attach, join,and follow.

In Solo practice or partner work this aspect is used and present all the time.

I like cxw's work BTW, even the parts of it I don't agree with. I feel the term weight, and weighting, are not really good translations.

Ben Lo, used to talk about separating the yin from the yang. His weighting was 100/0 .

Some have talked about moving through the transitions as having a point where there is double weight. This really only occurs if one is referencing it to physical weight.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:55 pm

Here are some interesting quotes with a translation of "double pressure" instead. I don't think the translation should necessarily be "weight" perhaps? unless it's this second character that means weight on its own? More like "heavy"? https://zh.wiktionary.org/zh-hans/%E9%87%8D - double "HEAVY" has a completely different connotation in English. and is probably better imho.

We could probably say "pair weight", "twin heavy", "double heavy", "pair heavy"




偏沈則隨。雙重則滯。
If you drop one side, you can move. If you have equal pressure on both sides, you will be stuck.
(註)何謂偏沈則隨。雙重則滯。譬如兩處與彼相粘。其力平均。彼此之力相遇。則相抵抗。是謂雙重。雙重則二人相持不下。仍是力大者勝焉。兩處之力平均。若鬆一處。是為偏沈。我若能偏沈。則彼雖有力者。亦不得力。而我可以走化矣。
What does this mean? If you stick to the opponent with equal strength on both sides of your body, then once he opposes your strength, you will be resisting each other. This is what is meant by being equal on both sides. Being equal on both sides, you will freeze up each other’s movement and winning will return to a matter of who is strongest. If your strength on both sides is equal but then one side is loosened, this is the meaning of dropping one side. If I let go on one side, then even if the opponent has strength, he can do nothing with it and I can neutralize him.



https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... u-ruzhang/
Last edited by everything on Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:09 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:39 pm

windwalker wrote:"You mean when he's bouncing off of CXW, when CXW stumbles, or when he catches CXW off guard with that crashing in and makes him stumble back?"

In my earlier post I explained the concepts of double weight as we use it, is between mind and body with double weighting to mean that both are in the same place at the same time.

This prevents one being able to change.

In the clip cxw is not able to change, which is why in the context used he either bounces back or the other one bounces back from their own force. This means he can not attach, join,and follow.


At first I was going to question this, but after watching again I definitely see what you're talking about. I thought he was using receiving energy, and maybe he is a little after he catches himself on the back leg, but he's definitely getting thrown back out of control and then recovering.

windwalker wrote: In Solo practice or partner work this aspect is used and present all the time.

I like cxw's work BTW, even the parts of it I don't agree with.


I think he's a diligent martial artist of some definite talent. Not really a fan per se, but I recognize good gongfu.

windwalker wrote:I feel the term weight, and weighting, are not really good translations.

Ben Lo, used to talk about separating the yin from the yang. His weighting was 100/0 .

Some have talked about moving through the transitions as having a point where there is double weight. This really only occurs if one is referencing it to physical weight.


I agree, weightedness is not the best english word for it, but it's what has been established as the translated jargon.

The way I think of the shift is like wind cold->hot or electricity (+)->(-), you're resolving a difference of potential between two points, in this case the legs. One is "pushing" and the other is "receiving". They are embodying change, therefore, since double weighting is an inability to change, they cannot be called double weighted. Double weighted is they're both doing the same thing resulting in nothing. Hot = hot or (+) = (+) nothing is happening.
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