Double Weighted

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Double Weighted

Postby cloudz on Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:09 am

One of the ways I like to understand it; a nice, simple and basic practical demonstration I can offer the board. I think it is also informative. It can be extrapulated to 2 person interaction, but first order of business is to recognise it. To recognise double weight, I think first is to recognise "single weight".

I also agree that "Weight" can be really problematic, and I would rather use the terms connection or (lines of) force. But even though you could use "force", connection can replace it and is more precise and can't be confused with other things that force can describe like the force of an impact.

The checkerboard description is also useful as I also use the idea of cross body lines of force - these correlate with Yin and Yang.

So, rather than rollback and dissecting a clip as Charles suggested, my suggestion is simply go and issue ward off against a wall and freeze the frame.
For those that want to play along; what is now fixed and what is free ?

You should find there is a line of force issuing up from the back foot all the way up and across the body to the opposite side arm to the extremity of the hand. This is fixed and immovable in this snapshot. This correlates to Yin/ earth in my understanding. The other cross body line should be free to move; heavenly and Yang. I guess we also have other terminology handed down to describe this phenomena/ sensation; namely empty and full. So this latter cross body line is empty, free to move and act next.

From this freeze frame and what I've said I think one can start to extrapulate the practical knowledge and applications that are useful; solo and interacting with a partner.

For the record weight distribution and or head placement whilst have effects on connection and lines of connection, I personally don't see much value to saying weight evenly distributed in the legs/ feet is double weighted therefore an error.. Shifting weight can be a very small and subtle thing, it can be accomplished with rotation not only simply obvious translation. Tiny shifts can be enough to free a leg to move. Being centred on ones stance can equally mean being free to move in either direction. Being there is not the same as getting stuck there and unable to move and change. On the other hand if you locked/ ramped up, tensed up the connection in both legs simultaniously - what's worse? The latter certainly.

You can be just as likely and moreso to get stuck with your weight and connection all to one side. What weight does is bring gravity to bear and that can create a line or path that is more connected and tied together than the non weighted side. That is why it is so important to have the mental side and yi working to create the connections or lines of force inside. By forgetting these you can more easily fall victim to the arbitrary and natural conditions of gravity; by translating ones weight all on one side it creates a vulnaribility that can be exploited. Often techniques will use that very tactic, to get you on one side and take away the support.

So when you do the ward off test, play around with the weight distribution, notice how little you can get away with in regards shifting the weight between the feet, can the rotation of the torso in TCC play a big part or not? So in effect moving through a form can be like the 2 cross body lines filling and emptying (of connection) in turn. One cross body line stepping and issuing force, the other supporting and readying to make the next step or next issue of force. It's worth rememebring it's a whole body interaction so there can and should be force wherever there needs to be. But here we have to make a further differentiaition between more connected force (full) and less connected force (empty) - neither can be absolute.

The freedom of movement ultimately comes from the joints being free, so to speak. So connection relies on a force transference across the joints. The weight can cause an issue as when one translates to one side gravity presses down and the force of gravity traverses the joints in its path effectivel binding them closer together than they otherwise would be.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:27 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby windwalker on Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:58 am

So, rather than rollback and dissecting a clip as Charles suggested, my suggestion is simply go and issue ward off against a wall and freeze the frame.
For those that want to play along; what is now fixed and what is free ?


The mind.

Nice write up btw.

Quite correct about the many variations and outlooks describing double weighting.
I find it quite interesting and hope we can view this as a conversation sharing different outlooks.
This is the one I use for those I work with and in my own practice. It is also shared among some noted taiji stylist, notably
those in the Wu style and Yang Ban ho, line.

a bell

Image

If the clapper/ tongue "mind" is going in the same direction as the body "physical body" it can not release a sound ie force. The same as when some get stuck in movement or are either bounced out or bounce others out all happen due to the inability to change according to forces applied or in time with them.



It is by this interchange of mind and body that one is able to release force and able change according to applied force with very little to no outer movement, depending on what moves and what remains still or in some cases both are moving will still keeping the central point still "crown" stillness in movement , movement in stillness.

This ties together with 4oz....that many ask about..one should think of why 4oz, why not 4lb or 40lb...why 4oz.
4oz is a very light pressure in most cases just below the conscious perception of applied force. The mind can only be felt just as the sound can only be heard by its interaction with the body of the bell. The more sensitive ones perception is the faster the change can happen.

By the time one feels a force applied the mind has already passed through. In what is called double weighting the mind and body are both locked in one direction, unable to change because of this.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby cloudz on Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:20 am

Absolutely agree about the mind being a big factor..

It's important to create a 2 way force in any given direction, the only way to do that is via the intent: that is true whether or not that intent manifests or expresses externally (with physical movement).

So you could have one direction moving physically while the yi and internal force counteract the opposite way. Or you could have the yi going in opposite directions just with the internal force. Move physically in 2 directions instigated & supported by the yi.

Errors will be when they are as you allude, moving together in tandem in one direction. There's no counterforce to keep you stable for example..
Where there is left, there is right, where there is up there is down. This line from the classics talks to me about this balancing act of opposing forces.

regards
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:24 am

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I don't know, what do you think?


Not so fast. Over the course of 7 pages, you've stated what double-weighted means. Here's a chance to apply that understanding to a simple posture/move that everyone knows and is found in every Taiji form in one variation or another. I'm asking you to think about it and apply your understanding to that common posture/move.

Given that nearly every practitioner of Taijiquan practices some kind of form, and nearly every form contains the posture/move in question, and that most experienced practitioners have practiced this posture/move hundreds or thousands of times, the answer should just roll off one's tongue, right?

I agree that there are pages of definitions without apparent understanding/explanation on how to apply it to a common posture/move or an opponent.

Steve James wrote:Your other points address the usability of the concept, since, during a shift of bodyweight from one foot to another, there's always a point where the weight is evenly divided. Iow, if the weight is distributed *80/20" between front and back foot, then to get to "20/80", it'll be necessary to go through the "50/50" distribution.


The following addresses "avoiding" double weighting (arguably?) while stepping.

Excerpt from "The true cause of "double weighting," http://classicaltaichi.blogspot.com/201 ... hting.html:
James Roach on July 17, 2011 wrote:They ascertain what they think double weighting looks like but what they fail to ascertain however is the root cause of the double weighting. The root cause of double weighting is the “pushing from the back foot” in going forward and “push from the front foot” in going backward in a large frame that the vast majority of practitioner’s engage in while moving. The root cause I speak of is a direct result of this pushing because both feet are literally glued/frozen to the ground until the act of pushing is completed. A foot that is stuck to the ground, cannot be picked up and moved…hence the stance is double weighted. . . .

On the contrary, one can make the act of everyday walking into an internal art by adapting the Classical Tai Chi walk with its important characteristics of 1.) Using a “pull” walking motion, 2.) Keeping the body center of gravity under control, not allowing it to fall forward as defined as normal walking (we must eschew the act of controlled “falling”), 3.) Body weight stays back until foot (whether in front or back) is flat on the ground, then one pulls…one does not land the foot either on the heel or toe.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wbdKSUus3U


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbgzTB3UJlk
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:12 am

I agree with cloudz about the "weight distribution". The part in the "classic" right before this part talks about the wheel. The part before that talks about sticking, following, neutralizing, leading to emptiness, don't use force vs. force as that means bigger/stronger naturally wins. I don't see mention of feet, weight distribution, footwork, balance between your feet, blah blah blah. The popularity of the CMC/ZMQ 100/0 point in the USA and the obvious criticality of footwork, balance, etc. probably got people looking too much at "weight distribution" rather than this more fundamental point of don't have "double heavy".
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:45 pm

marvin8 wrote:
everything wrote:Almost all sports do this. As I often say. Taijiquan grasp sparrow's tail basic exercise does seem to help. Here is a double weighting that I want to cause. No touch force!

Image

Sports and arts do emphasize it. Messi does not just learn through "trial and error and using force against force." "No touch force" is not "force against force." Messi couldn't do what he does at 80% full sprint without specific training. . . .

It's not just a theory or words. It's an important concept that is emphasized, drilled and used against non-compliant opponents.


Classical Tai Chi
Published on Dec 6, 2018

Examples of top Soccer Players using Internal Discipline of Classical Tai Chi to generate power in their long ball kicking movements-examples from World Cup 2018:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbuz6BZne04
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby Overlord on Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:29 pm

Yeung wrote:I came across the following on double weighted from the book published by the Hong Kong Yiquan Society (1996), pp 48-49, other translation might be available.

拳道中樞(大成拳論)

王薌齋

夫均衡非呆板也,稍板則易犯雙重之病,然亦不許過靈,過靈則易趨於華而不實也。須要體舒放屈折含蓄,如發力時,亦不許斷續,所謂力不亡者也。蓋雙重非指兩足部位而言,頭手肩肘膝胯以大小關節,即一點細微之力都有單雙鬆緊虛實輕重之分別,今之拳家大都由片面之單重走向絕對之雙重,更由絕對之雙重而趨於僵死之途。

Section three of Essentials of Martial Arts (dàchéng quán lùn)

by Wáng Xiāngzhāi (the founder of Yiquan)



A balanced person is not stiff, as the slightest stiffness is easy to make the mistake of double weighted; yet it is not over flexible, as over flexible is easy to be slick and not firm. It is necessary to let the body relaxed and rotated, and if force is exerted, it should not be restricted, as in the saying that energy does not die away. In the case of double weighted, it is not limited to the parts of the legs, but it should cover all the large and small joints, such as head, shoulders, elbows, and knees, Even a little bit of force has the differences between single and double, elastic and tightness, void and solid, light and heavy. The current practices of practitioners of martial arts are mostly from a single [stretch] to the absolute double; and from the absolute double, it tends to be stiffened as dead. (Translated by Yeung, 26th December 2018)


Essentially double weighted means both foot placing weight on both heel of foot.
Although it’s mobile to move with weight on both balls of foot, it lack stability.
Thus you want to plant one foot on heel and the other on ball interchangeably. Thus footwork is both stable and mobile.

Wang extended this idea to the pugilistic frame, that is if you are stiff then it is not mobile. Yet if you are too soft then your frame is easily parry away. But all this can only taking time to examine through ZZ.

If ZZ correctly, when do the form finger tip will sweat a little and skin soft, this is different from other physical or martial art training.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:48 pm

marvin8 wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
everything wrote:Almost all sports do this. As I often say. Taijiquan grasp sparrow's tail basic exercise does seem to help. Here is a double weighting that I want to cause. No touch force!

Image

Sports and arts do emphasize it. Messi does not just learn through "trial and error and using force against force." "No touch force" is not "force against force." Messi couldn't do what he does at 80% full sprint without specific training. . . .

It's not just a theory or words. It's an important concept that is emphasized, drilled and used against non-compliant opponents.


Classical Tai Chi
Published on Dec 6, 2018

Examples of top Soccer Players using Internal Discipline of Classical Tai Chi to generate power in their long ball kicking movements-examples from World Cup 2018:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbuz6BZne04


I like this a lot ;D
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:12 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Examples of top Soccer Players using Internal Discipline of Classical Tai Chi to generate power in their long ball kicking movements-examples from World Cup 2018:




That's a bit misleading, isn't it? It's not like these soccer players are studying taijiquan and applying it to their game. They're just playing soccer and this person is just saying it looks like T'ai-Chi principles.
Meh.

In any case, it's a bit off topic for the thread so nuff said.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:32 pm

it's not totally off topic, because we were talking about how to MAKE your opponent double weighted (unable to change being the working definition).

ok but really when it comes back to it, after 9 pages of discussion, for this context, I don't think the notion of weight distribution and flat footed as being the same thing that the OP quote was/is talking about. "double yang" is all it really is. a failure to "pull when pushed". this isn't really such an exciting topic. I do love tangents. I don't think yeung is checking in any more. ;D
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:42 pm

As I've said repeatedly, the weight distribution idea is apparently what the literal Chinese translation of the term suggests.
But like other words appropriated by martial arts, they take on deeper meaning when used to describe the art.

The equal weight in the legs, pushing with both hands, and pushing on the same side as your weight ideas are good starting off points to understand the concept. Things to consider as you go through your form and push hands and discover that deeper and more abstract truth. I won't claim to have perfect understanding, but I will say that applying what I do understand of the theory in push hands is very practical and useful and the results are concrete. I find both abstract theories and concrete results very exciting, particularly when one leads to the other. :D
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:47 pm

the literal chinese just says "double heavy" afaik. the context of all the paragaphs around are just about wheel and yin/yang. I didn't see mention of footwork. Taijiquan footwork description seems relatively lame (look left, etc.) compared to other MA... BGZ for example. I don't hate on tjq like many people seem to do here. Just saying.

BUT I'm not denying footwork and I'm not denying "flat footed" could be a type of yang/yang. Just a narrow reading of the salt shop classic section isn't talking about that. It's talking about the failure to pull when pushed (to use a judo expression). Broadly, I don't disagree whatsoever with people's footwork points here.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:00 pm

everything wrote:the literal chinese just says "double heavy" afaik. the context of all the paragaphs around are just about wheel and yin/yang. I didn't see mention of footwork. Taijiquan footwork description seems relatively lame (look left, etc.) compared to other MA... BGZ for example. I don't hate on tjq like many people seem to do here. Just saying.


It's the second time you mentioned it so I'll bite.
IMHO, Advance, Retreat, Gaze Left, Look Right, and Central Equilibrium, though called the Five Steps, aren't really about footwork, per se. As you mentioned if it's just forward, back, left, right, middle, that's pretty lame and pointless. Also I must say IMHO, there is a bit of footwork in the solo hand form, but there's a lot more in the partner and weapons forms that most folks don't learn.

Probably better in another thread if anybody wants to go down that rabbit hole, though.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby Steve James on Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:25 pm

Translators have used the same texts for some time. There are differences among almost all afa wording goes. However, there's no such thing as a "literal" translation. There's only what the original writer meant, and we can only know that from translations. Furthermore, there's very little tcc writing that is literal. The positive admonitions are usually metaphors or similes or related to images, such as "like a wheel." None of the most important terms can be taken literally. Take "peng" for example, or sung, or zhong ding. Any literal translations of those terms will not be what the term fully means.

Afa footwork, tcc has a lot of footwork, and patterns. But, they will all come down to an alternation of yin and yang, and weight will transfer from one foot to another. Well, try doing tcc without shifting weight. In the Jade Lady Works Shuttles sequence, there are most of the foot positions that one will find in other imas. There's kai bu and bai bu; there's "l" and "t" steps, etc. Though, there's already an open step and a closed step by the time one gets to Single Whip. In fact, arguing that tcc doesn't have footwork, simply means that one doesn't know the art in any depth. That's not even taking into account the elaborate stepping patterns in Wu/Ng style, nine-palace stepping, etc.

Afa FMA, the major difference between the way they were traditionally taught and CMA is that old school practitioners began with blades and worked toward empty hands. Ime, there is a lot of "sticking" in FMA. It is used for disarms and for defense. It is probably true that tcc and cma people practice in ways that do not imagine an armed opponent. However, that doesn't mean that tcc can't be (shouldn't be or isn't) taught with street weapons in mind.

I found studying kali to be very useful. Then again, I have a friend who runs a Wing chun/Kali association. I.e.., kali principles are transferable to other martial arts. Anyway, maybe this satisfies as an example of "sticking."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Gg87NO3ds
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:42 pm

if we stereotype the big 3...

BGZ is understood to have more extensive and circular footwork. One of its primary training methods is walking a circle.

TJQ is about stick neutralize etc. One of its primary training methods is fixed step PH - it's ok if its footwork is not considered its main facet. It specializes in up close sensing and following.

XYQ is more forward and direct etc.

That's why they are seen as complementary. maybe we can claim TJQ has all of the 3, but that seems to be a giant stretch
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