Double Weighted

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:50 pm

Really like the kali video, thanks.

It looks like there has to be moments of sticking. But that isn't the main goal (not get cut, and cut). It's a means at a certain range.

I like the idea of TJQ as some kind of base and Rorschach test on which you can add (like BGZ footwork). I can't buy that it has all this other stuff. To paraphrase JW, where is the entry (if he does not move, I don't move), and the finishing, for example. Or that if you want to do double weapons, do TJQ over kali or BGZ. If I want to do some groundwork but mostly throws, I can do judo, but if I want to mostly groundwork, I'm still going to BJJ.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby cloudz on Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:37 am

everything wrote:I agree with cloudz about the "weight distribution". The part in the "classic" right before this part talks about the wheel. The part before that talks about sticking, following, neutralizing, leading to emptiness, don't use force vs. force as that means bigger/stronger naturally wins. I don't see mention of feet, weight distribution, footwork, balance between your feet, blah blah blah. The popularity of the CMC/ZMQ 100/0 point in the USA and the obvious criticality of footwork, balance, etc. probably got people looking too much at "weight distribution" rather than this more fundamental point of don't have "double heavy".



It's an interesting one. I think a lot of "weight" - I mean our experience of it, involves where the head is at. The head is very heavy, comparitively and where it sits it's obviously highly tied into our centre line and centre point. How we line up this line determines where and how we experience this "weighting" effect - the natural gravitational one.

Taking it slightly further than I did before; it occured to me that one natural (unconscious) reaction of the body is to counteract that extra pressure (weight) in support of our structure. I wonder what do we really feel, the actual weight or our autonomic response to it - or perhaps that's ultimately the same thing.. I digress.

The point I wanted to make is that you could double weight yourself by allowing yourself to sink the weight down accross both feet and forgot about balancing vertically with the head top. One if not the most fundamental lines to have 2 way energy is the centre line/ up through the spine. head top, up, coxyx down.

That situation would not be as bad if you were over to one of the sides, depending I guess, but at least you have one leg free still, rather than both feet "stuck in the mud" ("flat footed?") so to speak. There may even conceivably be a moment where you want to be as heavy as possible downward in line with gravity and that involves both feet.

Should we or do we still need to call it an error, perhaps not. None of this stuff need be absolute, I would say, it's still relative. But what they can do is provide great guidelines and guidence for certain contexts and requirements.

It's all gravy.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:47 am

oragami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
Examples of top Soccer Players using Internal Discipline of Classical Tai Chi to generate power in their long ball kicking movements-examples from World Cup 2018:




That's a bit misleading, isn't it? It's not like these soccer players are studying taijiquan and applying it to their game. They're just playing soccer and this person is just saying it looks like T'ai-Chi principles.
Meh.

No. Soccer players apply the same yin yang concepts, although with different training methods. Hwa is not "just saying it looks like T'ai-Chi principles." Hwa says, "top soccer players know how to utilize this yin and yang concept" and that soccer kick is exactly the same biomechanics as his Wu style kicking.

Stephen Hwa wrote:One of our kicking exercises is exactly what you will see the soccer player will do. . . . These top soccer players know how to utilize this yin and yang concept in their kicking routine. . . . You will see a very contrasting situation in the body: stable and dynamic. In our tai chi training, this is very important. Train people how to achieve this at what we call yin and yang of the body moving and unmoving part of the body. To achieve this in a split second situation is most difficult. And, this is what separates a top player from just a good player.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:55 am

So anything that looks like taijiquan to Stephen Kwa is taijiquan even if the people involved have never heard the word taijiquan. Makes perfect sense. Let's just call everything taijiquan, why throwing a baseball is just like brush knee, that must be taijiquan too!

I gotta say, that makes it MUCH easier to study. I'll just do whatever the hell I want and say "Hey, I'm shifting my weight... this is clearly taijiquan."
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:12 am

oragami_itto wrote:So anything that looks like taijiquan to Stephen Kwa is taijiquan even if the people involved have never heard the word taijiquan. Makes perfect sense. Let's just call everything taijiquan, why throwing a baseball is just like brush knee, that must be taijiquan too!

I gotta say, that makes it MUCH easier to study. I'll just do whatever the hell I want and say "Hey, I'm shifting my weight... this is clearly taijiquan."

You might reread the post. Hwa nor anyone else is "just calling everything taijiquan."

Yin and Yang can be found in everything: tai chi, soccer, baseball, boxing, etc.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:04 am

This is a dumb argument.

My point is, they are not using "Internal Discipline of Classical T'ai-Chi".

The whole idea of T'ai-Chi (Not T'ai-Chi Ch'uan or Taijiquan) is that EVERYTHING functions according to the interplay and waxing and waning of Yin and Yang mutually producing and destroying each other. Therefore soccer players "using it" is expected.

But the principle of T'ai-Chi is not T'ai-Chi Ch'uan. T'ai-Chi Ch'uan is a system of self cultivation based explicitly and primarily on the theories of T'ai-Chi. It's not a physical activity that just happens to express T'ai-Chi because everything is a manifestation of T'ai-Chi. It's a physical, mental, and spiritual embodyment of the principle.

Just because something appears to use the same mechanics based on an external observation doesn't mean it actually uses the same mechanics. I dunno. Maybe for Stephen it does, maybe for YOU it does. For me, the most substantial, and most difficult portion of the work involved with training this is invisible from the outside.

I would be interested in hearing a world class soccer player describing what they feel is happening when they kick, sure. Do they think about it in those terms? Do they just do what comes naturally? I guess I'm lying, I wouldn't really be interested unless I was just starved for stimulation at the moment.

So basically, my point, my main idea, the thesis of this stupid argument, is that while T'ai-Chi Ch'uan may look like other things sometimes, we don't train it like other things. Even if you wind up at what appears to be the same place as someone who took a different route, it's a disservice to both disciplines to conflate them.

What is more accurate is that Mr Kwa may have found a better understanding of his own practice from looking at the movement of soccer players, but the soccer players did not attain their mastery and quality of movement by looking at the Discipline of Classical T'ai-Chi that Mr Kwa practices.

Therefore they are not "using the Discipline of Classical T'ai-Chi". They're using the discipline of soccer practice, some of which might arguably be said to express some of the same concepts and principles as you might find in a given system of T'ai-Chi Ch'uan.

Like, I love this clip from Million Dollar Baby, LOVE IT. He talks about double-weightedness and twist step in a very direct and practical way. We have some of the same concepts in T'ai-Chi Ch'uan, however; he's talking boxing. He's training boxing. You can take the information and look for correlation in your system, but it would be insulting to the boxer and T'ai-Chi Ch'uan to say "OH, you're doing T'ai-Chi Ch'uan!"


Let things be what they are and they'll reveal their unique truth. Keep looking outside of it and you'll find everything but.

I mean, not that I really care. Slow morning.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:17 pm

oragami_itto wrote:This is a dumb argument.

My point is, they are not using "Internal Discipline of Classical T'ai-Chi". . . .

Just because something appears to use the same mechanics based on an external observation doesn't mean it actually uses the same mechanics. I dunno. Maybe for Stephen it does, maybe for YOU it does. For me, the most substantial, and most difficult portion of the work involved with training this is invisible from the outside.

Please present your argument against Hwa's detailed video explaining the biomechanics of the soccer kick and Wu style kick (posture/move) are the same. IOW, how they are different:
marvin8 wrote:
charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I don't know, what do you think?


Not so fast. Over the course of 7 pages, you've stated what double-weighted means. Here's a chance to apply that understanding to a simple posture/move that everyone knows and is found in every Taiji form in one variation or another. I'm asking you to think about it and apply your understanding to that common posture/move.

Given that nearly every practitioner of Taijiquan practices some kind of form, and nearly every form contains the posture/move in question, and that most experienced practitioners have practiced this posture/move hundreds or thousands of times, the answer should just roll off one's tongue, right?

I agree that there are pages of definitions without apparent understanding/explanation on how to apply it to a common posture/move or an opponent.


oragami_itto wrote:. . . They're using the discipline of soccer practice, some of which might arguably be said to express some of the same concepts and principles as you might find in a given system of T'ai-Chi Ch'uan.

Correct:
marvin8 wrote:Hwa says, "top soccer players know how to utilize this yin and yang concept" and that soccer kick is exactly the same biomechanics as his Wu style kicking. . . .

Yin and Yang can be found in everything: tai chi, soccer, baseball, boxing, etc.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby charles on Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:32 pm

oragami_itto wrote:So basically, my point, my main idea, the thesis of this stupid argument, is that while T'ai-Chi Ch'uan may look like other things sometimes, we don't train it like other things. Even if you wind up at what appears to be the same place as someone who took a different route, it's a disservice to both disciplines to conflate them.


I think you'd have a difficult time supporting that thesis.

There are an awful lot of practices that various Taijiquan practitioners use in their training. You might argue that some of them aren't "valid" Taijiquan practices, but then you'd be in for a long, slippery discussion of what is and is not Taijiquan.

If one acknowledges that a very large part of Taijiquan practice involves efficient use of the physical body, then it seems unlikely that in the history of humankind, that no one else discovered and employs ways of using the body the same as, or similar to, Taijiquan. An example Mike Sigman used to like to give is that African tribal members who "effortlessly" carry/balance heavy objects/baskets on their heads while walking is an example of "Peng jin". It's unlikely African tribal members are familiar with and practice Taijiquan.

There are, perhaps, some things unique to the practice of Taijiquan, but there is also an enormous amount of overlap with other physical practices. One human body works pretty similar to another, and all are governed by the same laws of physics and physiology. As much as we'd like to believe it, Taijiquan just isn't that "special".

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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:52 pm

Taijiquan just isn't that "special".


Maybe yours isn't. Mine is a system for fundamentally reorganizing my body. I've never personally seen anything else that resembles it in method or results.

Your results may vary, your experience too. That's fine.

I've never met a soccer player who felt like steel wrapped in cotton. You don't get taijiquan by studying soccer. You get it by studying taijiquan.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:58 pm

Marvin.

The claim made in the title of the video, "Examples of top Soccer Players using Internal Discipline of Classical Tai Chi to generate power".

If they don't study and practice the internal discipline of classical Tai chi then take that training to their soccer, then they are not "using Internal Discipline of Classical Tai Chi" they are using discipline of soccer practice that may resemble Kwas kicks.

Kwa on the other hand, by using the films as a reference to study his Taijiquan is using concepts (not discipline) of soccer practice to generate power.

Like I said, dumb argument, don't care, his video title is misleading. Not going to change my mind or argue further. Honestly... Don't care.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby charles on Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:31 pm

oragami_itto wrote: Mine is a system for fundamentally reorganizing my body.


Please don't take this as any sort of challenge, but now I'm curious as to what your fundamentally reorganized body movement looks like. Do you have any video footage showing you move?

I've never personally seen anything else that resembles it in method or results.


I know a few people who have stated exactly the same thing from their study of Pilates and from Feldenkrais. I've studied neither and am just reporting what they have stated.

I've never met a soccer player who felt like steel wrapped in cotton.


Have you met a Taijiquan practitioner who did? If so, what did it feel like? It's a serious inquiry. "Steel wrapped in cotton" is a standard Taijiquan platitude/jargon. My experience has been that very few practitioners have actually met someone who had high-level skills and for most, it is just an empty platitude.


You don't get taijiquan by studying soccer. You get it by studying taijiquan.


That is true. However, there are some skills and abilities that are found in Taijiquan that can be found and developed in other physical pursuits. One example is the ability to really "relax", a prerequisite for nearly all of the more advanced skills in Taijiquan. Many elite athletes in a variety of pursuits have learned that ability.

As an aside, the teacher's name is Hwa, not Kwa. I have nothing invested in it, but I know a student of Hwa's teacher, Yang Wabu. Yang Wabu was the real deal. Don't know much about Hwa's skills.
Last edited by charles on Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:28 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Kwa on the other hand, by using the films as a reference to study his Taijiquan is using concepts (not discipline) of soccer practice to generate power.

Like I said, dumb argument, don't care, his video title is misleading. Not going to change my mind or argue further. Honestly... Don't care.

Hwa is not "using the films as a reference to study his Taijiquan is using concepts (not discipline) of soccer practice to generate power." Hwa's power generation and kicks are from studying taijiquan with Yang Wabu.

You conflate what Hwa said, make up your own argument (straw man), then call it "dumb." While, you avoid explaining specifically how the kicks (posture/move) are different:
marvin8 wrote:Please present your argument against Hwa's detailed video explaining the biomechanics of the soccer kick and Wu style kick (posture/move) are the same. IOW, how they are different:


marvin8 wrote:If you can discuss what tai chi's "double weight" theory adds or how it is different, I would be interested in hearing.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby everything on Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:37 pm

I def feel like taiji can help me/everyone relax more. It can improve my soccer or my whatever. But the vice versa isn't true. In that sense despite lacking a lot, it has some "special" attribute imho.
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:48 pm

I don't do videos as a rule. Too much ego wrapped around the practice.

In short generation of movement and power through specifically sequenced relation. There isn't much to see, but it is fundamentally different than the natural movement I've used my whole life.

I've never studied Pilates or feldenkrais, how are their push hands?

Have I met any steel in cotton folks?

Several. My former teacher (student of T.T. Liang), a member of this board, and my primary training partner(student of Ben Lo) also some folks here and there that came through who's name I never got or forgot.

I suck, but I can hold my own with most of the people I touch, dominate a few, get beat some. Those guys though just push through me like I'm a Jenga puzzle or tissue paper.

It's not that they're stronger, they just ignore my strength and structure, it can't affect them. Very frustrating to experience. The lightest touch and I have to fight to sink and maintain control of myself and my balance. Good training though.

Anyhow, back to the main point.

Let's say you have two friends (I know I'm asking a lot of your imagination here but try. ;P) and they're both overweight and you don't see them both for a while and then when you do they've each lost 40lbs.

You ask one how he did it and he tells you he has been eating right, getting up early, exercising, and it just happened and he feels great.

You ask the other one and he says he's just been doing a lot of cocaine.

So the end result is the same, right? 40lbs lost is 40lbs lost, right? They both look good. Even though they took different roads to get there, from all external appearances, they got the same results.

Cut em open and examine the gross anatomy, though, and you might find some differences on the effects caused by their disparate habits.

Now suggest to the exerciser that he could of done better with the cocaine.

Which is to say that, even if I were to accept there were no difference in the physical conditioning of well trained taijiquan and any other athlete, the particular results are achieved through use of a particular system. Even if some of the phenomenal and ability seems comparable, they are different disciplines, different studies, and different arts. Taijiquan in particular even after 16 years study still challenges my understanding and preconceptions. To equate taijiquan to any other physical exercise as interchangeable is to slight the art.

Which is not to take anything away from or badmouth anybody, just saying that the only way I know to get what I want is Taijiquan. YMMV
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Re: Double Weighted

Postby charles on Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:05 pm

Thanks for your response.
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