Counters to diagonal flying?

[Bao]

At the point shown in the picture it's already too late

Exactly. If you let someone put you in that position, it means that you can not defend yourself. Either you keep away or counter his movement as he enter, or even before that.

From there, Uke can ...

I am allergic to that japanese term... just sayin'

[bailewen]

I was waiting for someone to show a picture. The original question was too vague. How is diagonal flying being applied? What position are your feet in? Where are your arms? Is it being applied, as in the picture above, more like a modified "part wild horses mane" or is it being applied more as kao, as a shoulder strike?

For something like the picture above, the counter is to grab the arm and spin to the left.

[Chris McKinley]

If the diagonal flying is being applied as a takedown, as it is in the photo of Yang Jwing-ming, then rolling to your left will get you the armbar I described. You just have to do it before the Tie Cheesemaster gets you leaning back like that.

[everything]

At the point shown in the picture it's already too late

Exactly. If you let someone put you in that position, it means that you can not defend yourself. Either you keep away or counter his movement as he enter, or even before that.

Yeah, exactly - to flip things around, I like this app as the applier because getting there can be relatively quick, deceptive and efficient.

Still, musn't be overconfident as there are cons. I like the early counter ideas from both sides (1 - so I can try 'em, 2 - so I can head them off at the pass if I'm doing the flying ). Will try to work these with some friends later this week, so thanks a lot for the ideas.

[Wanderingdragon]

If you are late and he does get you off balance and leaning back, you can regain your center by stepping back with your rear leg , sitting on his upper thigh, and rolling into his center, transferrring your weight forward while circling your arms upward,forcing him to readjust and affectively nillifying his original intent.

[everything]

Hmm, yeah. That might be harder for me to learn but then it seems perfect for getting to the armbar. Excellent.

[cloudz]

If you are late and he does get you off balance and leaning back, you can regain your center by stepping back with your rear leg , sitting on his upper thigh, and rolling into his center, transferrring your weight forward while circling your arms upward,forcing him to readjust and affectively nillifying his original intent.

the force should be applied into your dead angle. If you are 'got' properly stepping back with your free leg won't work - also you won't be able to step across far enough, you are off balance, leaning back and your front leg is blocked (try it) - Remember, Just like 'you' can adjust so can the one applying the force.. If your dead angle is being attacked - and is kept there (adjusted), stepping back wo'nt help you at all. Because the angle you need to recover is not straight out behind you - it is "supposed" to be diagonal (perpendicular) through you - that is the line between your legs.

Stepping across won't help you if the force is applied in the proper direction and adjusted as needed. You're in a bad position and stepping won't get you out of that bad position you described.

Let's say you are standing in a regular stance facing forward one foot ahead of the other.. for my description to be clear.

I can see a kind of spinning around will entail - a very likely outcome if you step in and across behind you. Most likely "you" still ending up on the floor first.. because your balance was caught.

Just my opinion anyways.. also people are talking about an armbar counter 0- doesn't Dr. Yang also have an armbar there across his chest. If his man goes for his arm, maybe he'll have a go at his arm first eh.

It's all very well talking aboutthis and that counters, but it does gets silly in the end. After all there are counters to counters aren't there..

meh

[Wanderingdragon]

If you are late and he does get you off balance and leaning back, you can regain your center by stepping back with your rear leg , sitting on his upper thigh, and rolling into his center, transferrring your weight forward while circling your arms upward,forcing him to readjust and affectively nillifying his original intent.

the force should be applied into your dead angle. If you are 'got' properly stepping back with your free leg won't work - also you won't be able to step across far enough, you are off balance, leaning back and your front leg is blocked (try it) - Remember, Just like 'you' can adjust so can the one applying the force.. If your dead angle is being attacked - and is kept there (adjusted), stepping back wo'nt help you at all. Because the angle you need to recover is not straight out behind you - it is "supposed" to be diagonal (perpendicular) through you - that is the line between your legs.

Let's say you are standing in a regular stance facing forward one foot ahead of the other.. for my description to be clear.

I can see a kind of spinning around will entail. Most likely "you" still ending up on the floor first.. because your balance was caught.

Just my opinion anyways..

This is as I said an emergency technique, if you get caught off balance, maybe I should have said adjust the back leg so you can sit on the forward thigh, this is a matter of dropping the weight onto his thigh, the rear leg is to push as you roll forward to regain your center, chances are you will both go down or as you said he will adjust ,but the original intent will be interupted. Everything you have mentioned is absolutely correct , what I was talking about was pure reaction in effort to take a bad situation to a better place for yourself , allowing time to break out and regroup.

[Chris McKinley]

cloudz,

RE: "...doesn't Dr. Yang also have an armbar there across his chest. If his man goes for his arm, maybe he'll have a go at his arm first eh.". Yes. The bloke in the picture is already near-doomed at that point. That's why we all mentioned how it's important not to let him get you there in the first place by doing some of these various counters. Once he's got you locked in, the only thing you can do is to go with his force faster than he's moving you so you can build up some slack in the system. That may require rolling to ground, going into then out of a lock, etc.

In my example, you could counter his higher arm by turning to your left, which will get you the armbar across the back of his left triceps. Doing that would only tighten his armbar of your own right arm if you don't do anything else, so that's why, if he's got a hold of your right hand like that, you have to also to perform 'ko' with your right arm to twist out of it and make any barring of your arm impossible.

Like you pointed out, grappling is a game of tit-for-tat that can be theoretically played all day. In reality, you've got to make your move decisively, whether you're the one applying the lock or the one countering it.

[everything]

It's all very well talking aboutthis and that counters, but it does gets silly in the end. After all there are counters to counters aren't there..

Sure, just wanted to get a few ideas, not ponder infinity. In reality, formlessness is the ideal but no fun to talk about.

[velalavela]

Yes, like you guys say there is always a counter to a counter......as your oponent changes position/attach/counter your position/attack/counter will change.

I guess you just have to do more and more push hands.....do the drills and build up your skills. Then do more and more free style push hands and gain more experience.

My teacher says many people would ask Ma Yueh Liang how he had done a technique and ask to be shown how to do it.

He would say he could not repeat it as the body positions of the oponent and himself would now be different so another method would be better.

Regards all

[Ba-men]

New here...

Hmmm.. interesting
I learned diagonal flying as a defense from an attack from behind (say from a bogus/crude head lock, bear hug or attempt to control arm and shoulder from behind etc...) One steps behind the opponent and projects with fa-jin to the area where he has not root (Kou and zhou applied respectfully)

For myself, The applications described and the counters given fall into "Wild Horse Parts Mane"


just an observation...

[jjy5016]

Been many years but I seem to remember two counters for this. The first one coming right out of the Yang family's da lu exercise where the guy about to get thrown over the leg steps behind the leg, getting behind the attacker's center as someone previously mentioned and then applies his own push to the chest of the attacker.

The other one is to use the leg itself and slide it behind the attackers weighted foot and then knock the knee into the inside of his thigh creating a push - pull on the top and bottom of his shin at the same time and taking his root from that weighted leg.

Saw Han "the cat killer" do this in an old film. I think that it came from his shuai jiao or bagua training.

[Chris McKinley]

jjy5016,

There are way more than just two counters to this, but...almost all of them still require that you act before he gets your weight back and over your legs. Otherwise, you will physically be unable to lift that leg. Even in the picture shown, if the guy in the black pants were to lift his right leg even slightly in order to perform either of the two counters you described, Dr. Yang could immediately and effortlessly perform a spiral throw on him where he would spin/fall backward and to his right, long before he could regain enough balance to actually reposition his right leg behind Dr. Yang's left. The guy in the picture is mostly past the point of performing a counter. About the best he can do is to fall back fast enough to gain the slack to spin to his right, taking pressure off his right arm and regaining a base from which to attempt another type of counter.

[GrahamB]

The problem I have with most Tai Chi techniques is that, done properly, there is no counter. Done badly there are many