Counters to diagonal flying?

[everything]

What are the typical counters to taiji's diagonal flying, especially in a sport that is throwing-oriented or that allows throws? Thanks. I think I've only seen a striking defense, not a takedown defense.

[Bao]

Put your rear leg close to the other (like a follow step) and "sit" down (not necessary to go very low, just sink). Intention and movement toward his center-line. If you follow his movement this way, he will drop down and you won't. Kinda hard to describe it, but this is the best I can do (without my camera...) As a loose rule, you can counter almost every attempt to throw, or trip you, by "sitting".

[Chris McKinley]

One of the simplest is to roll to an armbar of his higher arm. Usually, you'll get it right at his upper arm or shoulder.

[GrahamB]

One of the simplest is to roll to an armbar of his higher arm. Usually, you'll get it right at his upper arm or shoulder.

...then wrap your hand around the back of his head, on the inside of his arm, pivot step, and throw.

[mixjourneyman]

Diagonal flying is also a good counter to Diagonal flying.
Assuming the guy has his arm under yours, you can just turn your body while putting on the hand position of df and push him out of the way or take him down.

[Chris McKinley]

Graham,

If I'm not serious about the situation, one of my favorites after getting the high armbar is to drive his shoulder down, get a leg around his head and do a rolling throw right into a BJJ armbar. It's not a very common move from a standing armbar and it foils the typical counters to the standing version. If it's serious, he's just gonna eat a wall or get a curbstomping.

[GrahamB]

Graham,

If I'm not serious about the situation, one of my favorites after getting the high armbar is to drive his shoulder down, get a leg around his head and do a rolling throw right into a BJJ armbar. It's not a very common move from a standing armbar and it foils the typical counters to the standing version. If it's serious, he's just gonna eat a wall or get a curbstomping.

That sounds far to energetic for me. I didn't get into this IMA lark to have to roll around on the floor you know

[johnrieber]

from my admittedly shabby POV, that's probably the toughest practical question i've seen posted here. my primitive response is: depends a lot on the angle they're coming from, and at what point you feel the technique coming in. how far into your center have they stepped--do they have knee to back-of-knee on you, and can you recover by withdrawing step, or are you already uprooted? how straight (or how far past straight) is your arm? have they torqued you enough to take your opposite hand out of play, or did you shift in to meet them when they were coming in? are they grasping and twisting your wrist, or have you already done that for them? can they crank your arm down, raise you onto your toes, and put their elbow in your sternum?

splitting is a pain in the ass to deal with, if someone's really got you in that spot.

my default answer is, when you feel the pull, bow your bows for all they're worth, and move into the pull the moment you feel it happening while closing your frame. if you can't step, sink, and if you can step, sink anyway. if you can sink make a little space and get your elbow down, you're not in trouble, they are--if you can control the foundation.

problem with diagonal flying is, if someone good is putting you there, you don't feel it until it's too late. because they're letting you put yourself there. and the bits after that can play out pretty fast.

good thing about being on the receiving end of diagonal flying is, both of their hands are tied up.

jeez. like i said--this is a good question.

[everything]

ok thanks. I think I can do all those or at least try them. Not sure I followed Bao's response clearly, though.

johnrieber - doubt this is the toughest practical question here but yeah, a late counter does not seem easy. I should say I can try the above if I'm early enough.

[Dean]

More Push Hands is the answer!

[Formosa Neijia]

One of the simplest is to roll to an armbar of his higher arm. Usually, you'll get it right at his upper arm or shoulder.

This counter is so powerful that the normal throw from diagonal flying isn't very useful. You normally have to be more creative with the move to get someone beyond the basic level (i.e. there's much more in diagonal flying).

Dave C.

[cloudz]

Well you know what they say about catching a strike.

So.. I guess the question is how many rizzlas can you get between a shoulder strike and a 'throw'. Cos i think the genuine tai chi attack in slant fly is the kao element (it is a leaning tech after all) - not throwing the arm out. A splitting element is also present and can be used.. sure. The shoulder strike should best be used into the throat if it's serious. getting into the position is the real work.

the take down I think should come from the shoulder strike tripping them over your leg placement or you could have hold of a leg for a variation.

I see the front arm as a follow through to the shoulder striking.

If done properly you'r struck and off balance before the arm really comes into play (ideally).

[Bao]

"More Push Hands is the answer!"

I would say: learn to adjust according to your opponents center. You must learn to control the distance, angles and how to follow. It's obviously easier said than done, but if he move in or to close, you need to adjust yourself into a favorable position. Don´t defend from where he allready moved in. Follow him when he move in, adjust your angle and position. TJ-classic say: "When my opponent move, I move." and "If my enemy seem close, I seem closer." Those two quotes say the same: adjust to your opponents movements. So, if he moves in, try to move in first.

"Adjusting" in this manner is not the same as "catching a strike", you need to be aware of the distance and angle toward your opponent all of the time. If you have a hard time to follow and adjust, maybe because because he moves to fast or unpredictable, then make sure you keep distance, outside kicking range until it is favorable tto move in.

[everything]

I was thinking more of a counter to a throw without a strike involved but obviously strike / knockdown can both be present.

Here are two images as examples of an app, though in my mind, I'm thinking a gentler app with applier's arm on chest, not neck.
http://www.taijiquan.com/images/taiji/t ... tling1.jpg
http://www.taijiquan.com/images/taiji/t ... tling2.jpg

Back on the Lyoto Machida takedowns thread, he does some moves that are similar,though not "textbook", e.g., vs. Vernon White:
http://idek.net/uM
I like his entry as his left punch can connect first then his forearm or elbow or shoulder could be striking again in a perpendicular direction. But, really, I'm only concerned with the actual takedown for the moment.

[Bhassler]

At the point shown in the picture it's already too late, but earlier in the throw the recipient can turn to his right using his shoulder and especially knee to open Dr. Yang's knee outward. From there, Uke can either push Yang away with Uke's left hand or sit on the inside of Yang's leg to take him down.