Counters to diagonal flying?

[DeusTrismegistus]

New here...

Hmmm.. interesting
I learned diagonal flying as a defense from an attack from behind (say from a bogus/crude head lock, bear hug or attempt to control arm and shoulder from behind etc...) One steps behind the opponent and projects with fa-jin to the area where he has not root (Kou and zhou applied respectfully)

For myself, The applications described and the counters given fall into "Wild Horse Parts Mane"


just an observation...

As I understand the difference between wild horse parts main and slanting fly is that wild horse is done from a horse stance and wild horse always includes the elbow lock. The motion is more straight forward and twisting when you attack also. Slanting fly is done from a bow or what we call a power stance and grabbing the arm/wrist isn't necessary. Slanting fly is a diagonal strike and can be used as a shoulder or forearm strike as well as a throw.

[DeusTrismegistus]

The problem I have with most Tai Chi techniques is that, done properly, there is no counter. Done badly there are many

Thats true of any technique really because when done properly they don't know what hit them until they are past the point of no return or waking up and asking.

[C.J.Wang]

The problem I have with most Tai Chi techniques is that, done properly, there is no counter. Done badly there are many

Thats true of any technique really because when done properly they don't know what hit them until they are past the point of no return or waking up and asking.

It also depends on the relative skill level ( 'gung li') of the thrower and the throwee.

When I try to pull off a move on my teacher, even though I am doing everything right, he can still find ways to counter me quite easily because his overall skill level -- root, structure, reflexes, timing, etc -- is much higher than mine.

[jjy5016]

jjy5016,

There are way more than just two counters to this, but...almost all of them still require that you act before he gets your weight back and over your legs. Otherwise, you will physically be unable to lift that leg. Even in the picture shown, if the guy in the black pants were to lift his right leg even slightly in order to perform either of the two counters you described, Dr. Yang could immediately and effortlessly perform a spiral throw on him where he would spin/fall backward and to his right, long before he could regain enough balance to actually reposition his right leg behind Dr. Yang's left. The guy in the picture is mostly past the point of performing a counter. About the best he can do is to fall back fast enough to gain the slack to spin to his right, taking pressure off his right arm and regaining a base from which to attempt another type of counter.

No Kidding.

The second technique does not require that the leg be lifted for the counter. It works. But as in any situation once you get passed the point of no return there is no counter. At that moment in the picture there isn't much the "uke" can do because his center of gravity is already compromised and he's just about to fall. Then again, depending on his skill level there might be some other options.

If you want to argue about the first one then I suggest you do it with the person(s) who created the da lu exercise that is in the Yang family taiji system, not me.

[neijia_boxer]

Diagonal flying is also a good counter to Diagonal flying.

in the 2 person 88 set they use diagonal fly vs diagonal fly. you slip/cover the attacking the arm and step back behind the guys leg and return the motion.

[GrahamB]

The problem I have with most Tai Chi techniques is that, done properly, there is no counter. Done badly there are many

Thats true of any technique really because when done properly they don't know what hit them until they are past the point of no return or waking up and asking.

Yes, but only Tai Chi is the "supreme ultimate". Man that's good - it's a martial art that's got built-in marketing-Fu!

[Chris McKinley]

jjy5016,

RE: "If you want to argue about the first one then I suggest you do it with the person(s) who created the da lu exercise that is in the Yang family taiji system, not me.". There's nothing to argue. The technique will work just fine if you catch it before he gets you over your center of balance. If you wait until after that point, it will not. Same with your first counter. I believe you've already acknowledged this, so I don't see any point of disagreement with you.

[Chris McKinley]

In Bagua, we go you one better. According to the Bagua mandala, the Taiji is just a subset that the Bagua mandala contains, so we have defined ourselves as "whatever Tai Chi is, only more".

[Ba-men]

New here...

Hmmm.. interesting
I learned diagonal flying as a defense from an attack from behind (say from a bogus/crude head lock, bear hug or attempt to control arm and shoulder from behind etc...) One steps behind the opponent and projects with fa-jin to the area where he has not root (Kou and zhou applied respectfully)

For myself, The applications described and the counters given fall into "Wild Horse Parts Mane"


just an observation...

As I understand the difference between wild horse parts main and slanting fly is that wild horse is done from a horse stance and wild horse always includes the elbow lock. The motion is more straight forward and twisting when you attack also. Slanting fly is done from a bow or what we call a power stance and grabbing the arm/wrist isn't necessary. Slanting fly is a diagonal strike and can be used as a shoulder or forearm strike as well as a throw.

Ah ha... hung lie...ok

[everything]

as a bonus, the flier that does grab the wrist can lock the elbow (across the body) while applying the strike and knockdown simultaneously. 3-in-1 is always good.

[bailewen]

A lot of funny use of terms like "always" on this thread. It points to the same issue that I alluded to in my first comment about waiting for a pic. There is some implication here that there is some sort of standard application for either WIld Horse or Diagonal Flying. Without even getting into stylistic (Yang, Chen, Wu, etc.) variations, there are still personal variations and then variations depending on where the opponents arms and legs are. Does the defender have:

- his left or right leg in front?
- his left or right arm in front?
- his lead arm high or low.
- his lead arm in front or behind the attacker as the movement progresses?

Also, what angle is the attacker facing with his torso? Really really sideways or almost with his back to the other person or more of a 45 degree angle? Did the attacker step in to the inside or outside gates?

[Bhassler]

In Bagua, we go you one better. According to the Bagua mandala, the Taiji is just a subset that the Bagua mandala contains, so we have defined ourselves as "whatever Tai Chi is, only more".

Wow--- MORE gay than tai chi?!?!??? That's impressive....

[Chris McKinley]

No, see......the eight trigrams are like the Y chromosome....without it, you get a chick art.

[Andy_S]

In most cases, if someone applies diagonal fly on you by looping under your forward arm and trying to push you down over their front leg (which is the way I see most people apply it) all you have to do is step round and back with the back leg. It's neither advanced nor difficult.

OTOH, if the guy doing the diagnonal fly knows what he is doing and has under-hooked your OPPOSITE/REAR arm (rather than same-side/front arm) I don't know a way out: He just turns your waist and down you go.

[everything]

not sure I follow you. this vid

of Mike Patterson demo'ing a throw (what is its name?) might be similar to what you're describing but he underhooks the front arm, and it's different from diagonal flying. but similar splitting effect. sort of close?