Counters to diagonal flying?

[johnrieber]

off to burn incense and thank kuan yin for john wang.

i'm only slightly disappointed that john didn't relate the two techniques to some spirited interaction with a beautiful girl. but hey. life's not perfect.

[Inner_man]

Considering the speed of the fall (done properly, not in slow demo mode) I think the best thing you can do in that fraction of a second is try to hold on to something like an arm and take him down too, however anything is possible, and I don't know what you're thinking.

I really like this question its a doozy.

If you are falling backwards over your opponents knee, then raise your knee and as you rotate your knee will smack him hard in either the chest /neck or face. Its simple rotation the harder you fall the harder your knee or leg hits your opponent and you CAN train to make this a reflex and it will work very fast for sure.

Ive been training with falling for years (fast at speed and not idealised shit..) If you train to instinctively kick appropriately when you get dumped (as this is pretty much the last place you want to be cos after this its bad for you on the ground.) then you can still beat your opponent (in a real fight) from this position. Ive done it at speed and it really works "sometimes though as in this type of dynamic nothings guaranteed" but like all of this game you have to train for it.

The problem I see for a lot training IMA is that they give up when they lose their root. Training for root is crucial to IMA for sure, but if youre training to fight and survive you need to train past the ideal and into the practical as well and its more than likely that in a real "session" you are going to be bouncing around all over the place unless you are a taiji god like FuZhongwen.

This is why I dont like PH competitions I find them too limiting and completely out of context (Oh dear did I just hijack this thread??? naughty me )

I train to kick and grab from all directions and all types of falls or pushes. Try it out, you have to learn to breakfall and from there you can expand into reacting properly. If I had time Id make a vid but Im hardly ever home and travel a lot for work - maybe oneday soon???

I wouldve thought JW would have some practical experience with this..

[johnwang]

no one lets me get close enough to step behind their front leg.

If your opponent moves in toward you then you can just move in and meet him half way. If you have to move in all the way then if your opponent can move back faster than you, it will be hard to close that distance.

I wouldve thought JW would have some practical experience with this..

This is the difference between sport SC and combat SC (CC). In sport SC, after you have thrown your opponent down, that round is over and your job is done. If you are on the ground, you will have all the time that you need to get back up before the starting of next round. In combat SC (CC), you have to finish him or trying to get back up ASAP. Old saying said, "You should keep your friends close but your enemies closer". You should not throw your opponent away from you without finishing him. It's better to:

- pick him up on the waist,
- flip him upside down, and
- smash his head directly to the ground.

Back in 1976, there was a full contact Karate fight in Dallas, a guy used this move and smashed his opponent's head on the ground, it took more than 10 minutes before that guy could stand up and walked off the stage. The best throwing is not just to let the gravity to do the job for you but to use your "smashing" to speed up your opponent's falling.

[Inner_man]

Agreed John

My perspective is from combat and not sport. I was getting at training for recovery from getting dumped so you can reflex to save your life.

[johnrieber]

If you are falling backwards over your opponents knee, then raise your knee and as you rotate your knee will smack him hard in either the chest /neck or face. Its simple rotation the harder you fall the harder your knee or leg hits your opponent and you CAN train to make this a reflex and it will work very fast for sure.

i kind of like where it sounds like you're coming from, apart from the whole initially dissing john wang thing. but i've really tried to work out how you could actually do that in the context of the thread, aka a decently-executed diagonal flying throw, and i just can't see how that would happen. in my experience, splitting energy in a throw doesn't put you in a tight free-fall state with the ability to rotate as you please as you're "falling"--even if your opponent is only partially controlling your foundation--it spins you out with so much centrifugal force and on such a outward sweeping sort of plane that you'd basically have to be throwing yourself into an olympic-level controlled backflip the moment before you lost your root to have a snowball's chance of connecting with a knee (!) to the thrower's neck or face as you were spun/slammed out. even if your hip to knee span was three feet or so.

just my two cents. and like i said--no offense intended. i'm just trying to relate what you're saying to diagonal flying.

(i totally give you and your perspective on training props when you say that a lot of IMA people stop fighting the second they feel themselves losing their root, and you train to work around that, btw.)

[Inner_man]

i kind of like where it sounds like you're coming from, apart from the whole initially dissing john wang thing.

(i totally give you and your perspective on training props when you say that a lot of IMA people stop fighting the second they feel themselves losing their root, and you train to work around that, btw.)

Yes rotation complicates things but i do believe its worth experimenting with falling and the whole mechanics of applications. Like I said earlier my philosophy really is "it aint over till I say it is....." I hope Ive given EWers a new perspective and something to explore in their own training, its surprising what more there is you can do "after" the classic techniques are applied. They are nothing more than a framework to build from IMO and should be explored further.

John please accept my apology if my post dissed you - this was not my intention I was more pointing to the fact that you may well have considerable experience in regard to my ideas? I need to take time to consider how I say things as opposed to what I want to say.. humble apologies

[johnwang]

"it aint over till I say it is....."

This is a good example for what you have said.



You will give your opponent less chance to counter you if you execute your "diagonal fly" this way.

http://johnswang.com/head_smashing.wmv

[Inner_man]

Nice piccy, its kinda where Im going with this, John thanks.

The head smash video is a good example, also. You have to be bloody fast to make it work, and there are openings when hes coming in and even executing but the whole point is for the 'victim' not to panic in these situations and to train to make it as difficult as hell to be applied.

[Ba-men]

Well honestly the easist counter I know is if you see/feel it coming early enough you just step back. I can usually only get a shoulder or forearm strike out of diagonal flying because no one lets me get close enough to step behind their front leg.

I agree. Its been my experience that someone of skill in most cases just steps out of my circle (applicative range) and re-positions themselves. This is done usually at the slightest notion that I'm up to something no good. ( we all do this when sparring)

However, if I can "ground them to the spot" through some form of "root disruption", then get the jump on them positioning wise, sometimes I can pull diagonal flying off. I do it with a short "file or Cuo jing" that can be used as a "strike to gain position" Or, if my jing and positioning is checked in the direction diagonal flying dictates, I'll attempt a counter in the opposite direction to whatever I'm confronted with.. that change of flow of the Yang and Yin is what I've been trying to hone for years.

As In see it ....In all case's (applying or countering) its the gaining of the correct position that is key

[johnwang]

If you can free your right hand from your opponent's grip, and move your right hand outside of your opponent's left shoulder and then push his left shoulder down and "spring" his left leading leg with your right leg then that will be a good counter. If you can't pull your right arm out then you may use your chin to bite on his left arm and use your right shoulder to press on his left elbow when you "spring". This way you will have more than 1 contact points.

Dr. Yang has ths book "Taiji SC - apply Taiji in SC". I just wonder if someone else write a book, "SC Taiji - apply SC in Taiji" then what should the difference in content?

[everything]

Well honestly the easist counter I know is if you see/feel it coming early enough you just step back. I can usually only get a shoulder or forearm strike out of diagonal flying because no one lets me get close enough to step behind their front leg.

I agree.

If I can't get the close distance, but have the arm grab ("catching" the punch as in this demo doesn't seem realistic, but...), I'd like to attempt turning it into this sweep from longer distance:

[klonk]

Hey JW, I'd just like to say again that I appreciate your extremely good and insightful remarks on taiji. Thank you!

[Ba-men]

Well honestly the easist counter I know is if you see/feel it coming early enough you just step back. I can usually only get a shoulder or forearm strike out of diagonal flying because no one lets me get close enough to step behind their front leg.

I agree.

If I can't get the close distance, but have the arm grab ("catching" the punch as in this demo doesn't seem realistic, but...), I'd like to attempt turning it into this sweep from longer distance:

Without a doubt catching a punch in a realistic format is darn near impossible. In fact I don't train to do it. In a " defensive" or Yin approach, their are ways that involve shielding and parrying into a position of advantage in order to pluck or seize a second or third punch that's coming in the form of a repetitive attack. I practice this approach with an eye on applying applications like Diagonal flying/Wild horse parts Mane...in short anything with "Heng Lie". Offensive wise...When I Apply Yang to the tempo of the fight. I try to jump the opponents initiative (which often ground the opponent's root) to get the position or I'll attack with idea to pluck/seize or move out of the way whatever defensive shield or parry put in my way.

Attempting to sweep from a longer distance "IMO" involves a very Yin approach and is always something cool to have in your arsenal of strategies and techniques (waiting on the edge of the opponent's applicative range and inciting him to attack with feints and repositioning..