Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:07 pm

So Fu Zongwen's book "Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan" contains a section on the "Jindian" of Grasp Sparrow's Tail. These are moving concentration points around the wrist and hand that "help the practitioner visualize optimal body alignment and directionality of kinetic energy."

His son, Fu Sheng Yuan, refers to them as "Jinlidian" and covers more of them in his book "Secret of Authentic Yang Taijiquan Applications".

Anyhow folks in the Fu line make a huge deal out of these, like you aren't getting taijiquan without working this into the mix, but they are literally the ONLY people I've ever heard about them from.

Do any of you know anything more about this concept? Is it part of your training?
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Bao on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:23 pm

Some teachers speak about the fingertips others about fair ladies hand, and yet others about focusing the strength in the laogong. The fu thing might be one method but it seems unnecessary complicated IMO.

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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:30 pm

Fu zhongwen's book (the one that I have) just has text descriptions, with the pictures it seem like they're just the strike point where you'd make contact with a hand technique.

Seems to run counter to the idea that it had nothing to do with hands
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby taiwandeutscher on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:19 pm

Yes, we did talk about those, differentiated Jindian as our own active point of delivering force, while Lidian is the point of contact with incoming force, mostly not the same. But it is a natural thing, changing according to Yin and Yang, so we never did define such points as unchangeable!
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Trick on Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:48 am

One of my two Yang Taijiquan teacher here in China studied some with Fu zhongwen but mostly learned from his brother. What asked in the OP was not something I took part of in my training with my teacher, but then I’m not an “advanced” pupil/practitioner
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby HotSoup on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:10 am

taiwandeutscher wrote:Yes, we did talk about those, differentiated Jindian as our own active point of delivering force, while Lidian is the point of contact with incoming force, mostly not the same. But it is a natural thing, changing according to Yin and Yang, so we never did define such points as unchangeable!


Do you practice Fu's Yang style or you're talking about another one?
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby robert on Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:03 am

oragami_itto wrote:So Fu Zongwen's book "Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan" contains a section on the "Jindian" of Grasp Sparrow's Tail. These are moving concentration points around the wrist and hand that "help the practitioner visualize optimal body alignment and directionality of kinetic energy."

His son, Fu Sheng Yuan, refers to them as "Jinlidian" and covers more of them in his book "Secret of Authentic Yang Taijiquan Applications".

Anyhow folks in the Fu line make a huge deal out of these, like you aren't getting taijiquan without working this into the mix, but they are literally the ONLY people I've ever heard about them from.

Do any of you know anything more about this concept? Is it part of your training?

I bought Fu's book "Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan" years ago because he did such a good job writing about jin. I would point out that in his preface he says the book represents Yang Chengfu's teaching, not his.

5. When one begins to study taijiquan, first one needs to be
able to do the complete set of movements and postures with
accuracy: then, in doing each movement, one must at the same time
practice moving jin.


The energy points (jindian) of taijiquan follow the movements
and ceaselessly vary. Therefore the movements must be “continu-
ous and unbroken“ and “move as though drawing silk.“

This seems very clear to me.

When I practice taiji, for the most part I don't focus on jindian, I work on the jin path and the jindian is just the end point of the path, but I am feeling it moving around. Often I'm just taking it to the fingers, but if I'm thinking about applications when practicing the form then I'm feeling the jindian proper, as FZW describes it.
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Appledog on Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:21 pm

oragami_itto wrote:So Fu Zongwen's book "Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan" contains a section on the "Jindian" of Grasp Sparrow's Tail. These are moving concentration points around the wrist and hand that "help the practitioner visualize optimal body alignment and directionality of kinetic energy."

His son, Fu Sheng Yuan, refers to them as "Jinlidian" and covers more of them in his book "Secret of Authentic Yang Taijiquan Applications".

Anyhow folks in the Fu line make a huge deal out of these, like you aren't getting taijiquan without working this into the mix, but they are literally the ONLY people I've ever heard about them from.

Do any of you know anything more about this concept? Is it part of your training?


This is one of the keys of taiji training, but I'm not sure if it is explained in the book why it is so useful in the practice of *training*. Talking generally it is just the practice of yun qi/dong qi (moving qi) and is not really a kind of jin/jing. All qigong that has to do with concentration points are just to help you get into the qi stage and wake up the inner body/dantien/etc. The silk reeling here is just qi shun, qi being kept smooth and without breaks or interruptions, just like in the classics and in all those interviews with FZQ, CXW, and everyone else.

That being said, there are different planes, such as the physical plane, the astral plane, shadow plane, etc. some of which may or may not exist. (meaning, someone may be coming up with a parallel training method and using a different focus point to explain it, so as not to share secret knowledge directly) or perhaps dimensions may be a better way of understanding it. When you have a "jindian" travelling around your wrist, this is similar to the moon which orbits the earth, as the earth orbits the sun. Sometimes people can't understand one kind of movement so you can point out another, and then one day it should suddenly awaken the grand circulation. The problem is that not all practices lead to the same flavor, so to speak; if you tend to look at the moon, or the sun, or draw circles around your wrist, or think of a movement as turning your body, or as an arc with your arm, etc. then how you think about the move affects the end result. All of these are different dimensions of the same reality. Its like, there are so many different "taiji qigong" practices that are just designed to loosen the shoulders and help you coordinate open and close. So which one do you choose? It's very important! Depending on which ones you settle on will affect how you perform your martial arts later on, down the road. Some of them may even intentionally gimp you in order to be more "spiritual", like you are "giving something (physical) up", to get a spiritual benefit. So it could even be contrary to your goals, and you might not know it. Then again if you knew this principle and various ways it was used (not just "what it is" but how it is used in training) then you could find your own happy medium yourself. Your teacher would probably see this in your form and commend you for making progress instead of just being a robot like everyone else, if you totally got this.

Therefore a detailed understanding of what is going on, and how these exercises will affect your practice is required or you will find yourself off the beaten path very quickly. As I mean, some of these 'new' ways of looking at things are simply untested. With that being said I would trust what Fu Zhongwen says here, it has the ring of truth so to speak. But this is stretching the limits I would say. And there are limits, as to what Tai Chi is and what it is not. And just because someone is famous and claims to teach tai chi does not make it so, as we see even in the modern day with certain schools that use Tai Chi to attract students and then end up teaching them some other art. But what I mean here is, there are lots of correct methods, I mean to say, and this one is rather an intriguing thought, definitely something one should consider along his journey of tai chi. But as to making a "huge deal" out of it, I would say that yes it is a requirement, in the end, technically... but... it is not something you necessarily need to hold on to, in the end. It might color your form away from tai chi into something else too much. Then again, what is something you can hold on to? Sometimes you have to take what you can get. I do say if you can't at least realize this level it will be extremely hard if not impossible to realize other some other levels, sometimes, so in that sense yeah I guess making a big deal out of it is important, but there are a lot of things you could make a big deal about. And a lot of them aren't made a big deal of in Tai Chi, usually, because when you use the "Tai Chi(tm)" training methods a lot of things just fall into place or you figure them out on your own. Then again there's always some use in pointing these things out and maybe even using different words, just to give people a different flavor to taste in order to get them to take their medicine.

Why is this particular stage so important for training? A master martial artist can copy any move he sees right away. If you have good qi flow, then you could perform any martial arts move you see, even difficult acrobatic moves, using this method. All you do is copy the qi flow. But it takes a real sharp eye to be able to see someone else's qi flow like that, where their intention is. But you can do it even if your not a master.

Anyways now that you know about such a thing the worst you can do is add it to your list of things to watch out for while you wait for something else to happen :)
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Appledog on Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:44 pm

oragami_itto wrote:So Fu Zongwen's book "Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan" contains a section on the "Jindian" of Grasp Sparrow's Tail. These are moving concentration points around the wrist and hand that "help the practitioner visualize optimal body alignment and directionality of kinetic energy."

His son, Fu Sheng Yuan, refers to them as "Jinlidian" and covers more of them in his book "Secret of Authentic Yang Taijiquan Applications".

Anyhow folks in the Fu line make a huge deal out of these, like you aren't getting taijiquan without working this into the mix, but they are literally the ONLY people I've ever heard about them from.

Do any of you know anything more about this concept? Is it part of your training?



Let's say you are an advanced student who is ready to make progress and you just need the right key to move forward. Your teacher sees this, and wants to help you, how does he do it.

Or lets say you are a little kid watching sesame street and you are ready to learn the next word. How is sesame street going to teach you?

Or lets say you are a math student and learning calculus in 1st year. You're ready to soak up that knowledge, how is it going to be presented to you?

Well first Grover is going to go zzzzzzt, zzzzzzzt, zzzzzzt, zzzzzt and draw a square on the screen and then Ernie is going to pick up a wooden circle and then they're going to look all sad because the circle does not look like a square. They will go back and forth with a triangle and maybe a rod, and finally Ernie will pick up the circle and they will intuitively realize that oh yeah that's what we're talking about. This 'realization' is important, because without it all you have is book knowledge and you won't really understand or be able to use the knowledge.

Or the instructor will show you example after example of trigonometric identities and you are expected to 'click' and understand them. Or the two headed monster says... M..... then OM... Then the letters move closer and closer together until the two concepts become one in your brain. This is all how to teach people so that the teaching is 100% transmitted, so that it is self-evident, and that no mistakes are made.

So, if you think about Fu Zhongwen's Jindian concept, and all you know is the form (a correct form, lets say) and you practice this that and the other thing diligently, then your M and your OM are very very close. Your F and your OOD are very very close and soon it will become self evident and you will realize, and understand, and be able to use these concepts. From that point it is very easy to reach higher levels, but until you can make that kind of connection it's pointless to talk about things like silk reeling your qi, nine holed pearls, birds and flies and yins and yangs and such. That's all concepts, book knowledge. This jindian stuff, actually, is so brilliant, because it's something you can use to make those connections on your own.

So as you can see this is all very basic stuff. I mean, it feels basic. But it's also so important. If you feel stuck with your tai chi after say 10 years and your not really getting the whole 'qi' thing this is a really great concept to start focusing on. If I was teaching someone and they came up to me and said 'all that jindian stuff you taught me, suddenly made sense, and when you move your arms like this, the jindian point is (here), because (xyz)," then I would be very happy with such a student for figuring it out.

So FZQ shows us the jindian for grasp sparrow's tail, can you figure it out for other moves (in transition)? That would be an important step.
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Bao on Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 am

All qigong that has to do with concentration points are just to help you get into the qi stage and wake up the inner body/dantien/etc.


Concentration points? Do you mean acu points, Dantian or other points? IMO, it’s better to keep the subjects separated to not cause confusion. Historically speaking, the theory and practice of Tai Chi is is connected to a Daoist tradition that is much older than modern medical qigong and older than the modern understanding of acu points. The concept of qi in Tai Chi does not deal with anything else than small and large heavenly circulation. This has absolutely nothing to do with direction the intent to various acu points which is a fairly recent invention, mostly found in so called medical qigong. So from a Tai Chi perspective, comparing jindian with the medical qigong type of focusing the intent to small points in the body, i.e. acu points, would just be wrong.

And BTW, Qigong is a fuzzy, nonsensical buzz term that can be meant any kind of practice that has something to do with stimulation of qi which is also a fuzzy nonsensical term. Painting and Laugh therapy could be considered qigong. Weight training could be considered hard qigong.
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Appledog on Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:38 am

Bao wrote:...from a Tai Chi perspective, comparing jindian with the medical qigong type of focusing the intent to small points in the body, i.e. acu points, would just be wrong.


You're absolutely right, my defense is that I didn't read the book but the impression I got from the OP was that they were just concentrating on moving spots on the body and not accupoints.

Bao wrote:And BTW, Qigong is a fuzzy, nonsensical buzz term that can be meant any kind of practice that has something to do with stimulation of qi which is also a fuzzy nonsensical term. Painting and Laugh therapy could be considered qigong. Weight training could be considered hard qigong.


It's certainly been moved in that direction but I don't have anything else applicable to call it.
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:38 am

Acupressure points are static, arranged along meridians, and offer a point to affect qi flow.

These are moving, at the end of the "Jin path".

So honestly I don't really see these as being much more complicated than contact point at this point.

I mean, contact point in the sense of that's where the Jin will be expressing itself. I learned to incorporate shadow boxing into my form which I believe serve the same purpose but in a more directly accessible way vs memorizing a list of esoteric points.

Or am I missing something?
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby robert on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:45 am

Appledog wrote:Talking generally it is just the practice of yun qi/dong qi (moving qi) and is not really a kind of jin/jing.

I disagree, the two are related, but they are different. Take fixed step single hand push hands. The jindian will be moving around the wrist, but the qi will be moving from the dantian to the hand and back.
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby robert on Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:15 am

oragami_itto wrote:Acupressure points are static, arranged along meridians, and offer a point to affect qi flow.

These are moving, at the end of the "Jin path".

So honestly I don't really see these as being much more complicated than contact point at this point.

I mean, contact point in the sense of that's where the Jin will be expressing itself. I learned to incorporate shadow boxing into my form which I believe serve the same purpose but in a more directly accessible way vs memorizing a list of esoteric points.

Or am I missing something?

I agree. I would also point out that you can move using qi (氣), but it doesn't have the idea of strength associated with it that jin (勁) has and so I think the idea that jindian is a contact point is important. Unfortunately these ideas don't really seem to be sussed out in taijiquan manuals and vocabulary differs between authors so it's difficult to discuss.
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Wuyizidi on Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:48 pm

Bao wrote:
All qigong that has to do with concentration points are just to help you get into the qi stage and wake up the inner body/dantien/etc.


Concentration points? Do you mean acu points, Dantian or other points? IMO, it’s better to keep the subjects separated to not cause confusion. Historically speaking, the theory and practice of Tai Chi is is connected to a Daoist tradition that is much older than modern medical qigong and older than the modern understanding of acu points. The concept of qi in Tai Chi does not deal with anything else than small and large heavenly circulation. This has absolutely nothing to do with direction the intent to various acu points which is a fairly recent invention, mostly found in so called medical qigong. So from a Tai Chi perspective, comparing jindian with the medical qigong type of focusing the intent to small points in the body, i.e. acu points, would just be wrong.

And BTW, Qigong is a fuzzy, nonsensical buzz term that can be meant any kind of practice that has something to do with stimulation of qi which is also a fuzzy nonsensical term. Painting and Laugh therapy could be considered qigong. Weight training could be considered hard qigong.


Bao:

What Fu Zhongwen is talking about here is "where the incoming force is felt on our body" (力点 Li Dian) and "where our mind should be". Explained using Taiji the philosophy, they opponent when attacking us, his mind and his force are all focused on a target on our body. So for him that is where he is "Yang". We can generalize and say whereever our mind is, that is where we are yang.

According to Daoist Taiji philosophy, our natural instinct is to solve the problem at the "trouble point" by directly exerting a force using that body part, either use a greater force to repel the force back (fight) or get away (flight). That approach can work in a lot of cases. Where it fail to work is if they opponent is strong and faster, that he can either apply even more force to make it work, or sensing what we're doing, can always adjust and continue to cause us trouble.

This approach, of two yangs contending at the same point, is called "double-weighted" in taiji the philosophy.

After thousands of years of research, in Chinese martial art we invented several major ways of using less force to solve the problem, all of them explained/based on Daoist principle of soft (relative: less force) overcoming hard (relative: bigger force). In Taijiquan, the quan that is based on Taiji philosophy, the strategy is meet that yang with yin, and exert a yang force elsewhere to solve the problem.

It's exemplified by the behavior of ball in water:


Here we have a very pure/clear case: the ball is not capable of exerting any force on its won. Notice any time the tiger is trying to push the ball down into the water, unless the force is perfect, even if it's slightly off center, the ball spins out. If the tiger had his full weight on top of that push, he would've lost balance and fall into water right?

To break it down, how this is possible: the ball is resting a tiny portion of itself (by virtual of being a circle/ball) on an inherently unstable base. When a force is transmitted to that base, unless it's perfect in every way, will cause changes in the relative position of that tiny contact area on the ball with the water. We can think of that contact area as center of circle. The area where the tiger is exerting force on the ball is the outside of the circle. So any change at the center is magnified on its outer edge.

Image

So this is what we mean in Bagua and Taiji when we say we always want to be on the inside of a circle. It's the same principle as if we are aiming a rifle at an enemy far away, no matter how far he moves to the left or right of us, we just need to move our aim a few inches to compensate. This is the part most people don't initially understand Taiji can work - how slow can defeat fast, how a smaller force can defeat a larger force - if we are on the inside of the circle, we don't have to move a lot - so relatively we don't have to be as fast or strong, but every little move we do, the opponent on the outside edge of the circle have to move a lot to keep up. If we lose the circle and it's just linear force on force, then of course the bigger, faster force wins.

So translating the "ball in water" behavior to human physical skill. First we must develop integration, or whole body force. In one aspect this means no matter what happens anywhere on the body, every part of the body acts as one. One major implication of this if someone try to move us, that force is not trapped in our upper body, it is felt all the way to the bottom of the one foot that the weight is resting on that very moment. The heel of the supporting foot is the small part of the ball in contact with water.

But we're standing on the ground, not water. So where does the inherent instability come from? It's what we develop in practice. Just like circus performers and slack line enthusiasts, we spend a long time developing our balancing skill. So that tiniest change in our center of mass would trigger a correcting action.

How do we develop this highly sensitive balancing skill, by forcing ourselves to be perfectly centered at all times (zhong zheng), and as much as possible, always try to support all the weight on a single foot. In fighting it's okay to have significant percentage of weight on both feet. But if we practice that way, it makes balancing too easy, we never develop high level sensitivity, because there was no need. As the classic says, our body should be so sensitive no even a fly or feature landing on it can go unfelt (in the foot).

Qi is a very complicated subjected. But for martial art purpose, we can say it's a feeling of energy. So every taiji group talks about zhong qi - central qi. That refers to the highly refined sense of your center of mass. Stand on one leg like in yoga tree pose, now raise both your arms over head, now move both your arms to the front shoulder height, now move left and right ... Each time you do that, your center of mass changed, did you feel that. If you didn't, try doing that really fast. If you still didn't, try doing all of that with your eyes closed. Did your torso and supporting leg remain perfectly still during all of that? What's keeping them still - core strength and powerful adjustment by the supporting foot (rooting).

That higher level of practice, the practitioner can feel the movement of the center at all times. These movements, or undulations of the center, is what is called Zhong Qi Gu Dang (undulation).

So now you have awareness (sensitivity), the first prerequisite for Taiji skill. How does it inform what to do? If you understand the Taiji philosophy, you'll know that wherever the force is felt, that is where the enemy is yang. You should solve the problem by moving some other part of the body. You can think of this as a seesaw:

Image

If there is a weight on the left seat, instead of placing your hand on the grip at the bottom of the left seat, you push down on the right seat.

Because the right and left are connected by the steel rod, any change on the right indirectly causes changes on the left. That steel rod - solid connection between various parts of the whole, is a skill we develop through practice. We call this Liu He - six integration.

By being single weighted balance wise, we deliberately make ourselves inherently unstable, but we use that instability to make opponent have a real difficult time exerting a force on us, the slightest deviation and the force misses. So we say in Taiji: force has many components, the opponent provide the "amount" of the force, but we provide the "direction/angle" of the force. He misses and lose balance as result, that's what we really mean by "borrowing his force to beat himself", like when a bear fall into pit with spikes, the force of his fall (and weight) is what kills him. It's not necessarily the same time of borrowing we see in judo/aikido, where we turn the same direction as opponent's force and add to existing force.

The final step then is, how do we move the other part? Remember in Taiji philosophy, and in Chinese martial art in general, we say yang is whereever the mind is, qi is whereever the mind is. So any time something happens to one part of the body, we mentally forget, ignore that part, and put our mind on another part, causing that part to move. And because that part is perfectly integrated with every other part, moving that will cause change at the area where opponent is exerting the force. For whatever reason I cannot explain yet, when the force is indirect like this, it's much harder to detect, until too late.

As is the case with the tiger, the change of contact angle between the ball and his paw changed in a way that his push is no longer effective.

This is how the problem is solved in Taiji. We say Xingyi heng dong, bagua bian dong, taiji kong dong - in taiji we don't do anything directly with that Li Dian, in fact we maintain contact with opponent, but we do something elsewhere to make that contact point empty. Other example we use is if you're resting your weight on a cane, and I shoot a bullet shattering the center of the cane. No matter how hard you continue to push or grab the handle, you're still going down. Or a dead fall trap for bear: bear step on a trap, breaking some supporting element below, suddenly it's nothing but 10 feet of empty space between him and the spikes below.

The question then is: how do we in a real fight, where everything goes so fast, manage to ignore where the opponent is targeting and put our mind elsewhere? That's just not natural.

The only thing that can come out of us in a fight is the habit we already built. So the only way in fast push hand or fighting that we can do this is if we have already spent years in form and push hand practice putting our mind elsewhere. So Master Wang of Northern Wu Taiji said "when raising the hand don't think of the hand, when putting down the foot don't think of foot".

Over the centuries Chinese martial artists in all groups have developed mental queues for making particular skills work well. The hallmark of a good teacher is that for every movement, he tells you where you weight should be, and where to put your mind. In Taiji, because the way its skills work, this has been systematized. Here's a simple example: when we raise both our arms up (hands relaxed, palms facing down) in preparatory posture of the form, the natural instinct is to put the mind on the top of the wrists, controlling their rise right? Well, the mental queue here is to put your mind on the tip of middle fingers, think you want to touch the center of palm with it. That will naturally cause the rest of the hand to "escape" from it, and rising naturally/indirectly. That is also the least effortful way of raising the hand with palms down.

So we say for that movement, tip of middle finger is "Jing Li Dian". These types of mental queues, used in sports, martial art, qigong, is what is called in Chinese Xin (mind) Fa (technique).

In Qigong unless someone tell you Xin Fa, you will never get far. Same in internal martial art. These are shortcuts. Every one of them discovered through lifetimes of practice by thousands of generations of dedicated practitioners. Even if you have the talent, you don't have enough time to rediscover all of them in one lifetime. So this is one reason we call Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Internal Practice, just like Qi Gong. Unless you're doing that internal work, you're not going to get the results.

This putting the mind elsewhere is also how internal practice changes us. If you see some crazy guy speeding past you on the highway, the last thing you do is to speed up and go the next couple hundred miles bumper to bumper on his tail right? But if you don't do that, you can't win a NASCAR race. If you're the quarterback in American football, and you see couple thousand pounds of armored muscle running at top speed at you, ready to shoulder strike you into oblivion, can you ignore them and methodically scan the other far side of the field, to see which receivers are going to be open in the next 1 or 2 seconds? If you can't, then you cannot function as a quarterback in NFL.

Expression of true high level skills requires a radically different mindset. That mindset is an inseparable part of how those skill work. All we are doing in training is building new habits, so unless we do this all the time, that habit never form. So physically, intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, the practice alters us, because it has to.

On the last point about conflating acupuncture and qigong points with Taiji. In the beginning masters are probably like, okay, put your mind in this area of the body in this part of the movement. The move to using acupuncture points started probably in the 19th century. And in 20th century, it's actually one of Master Wang Peisheng's major contributions to systematize its use. He happened to have extensive knowledge of Confusian, Buddhist, and Daoist qigong practices, since acupuncture and qigong points are by their nature more sensitive points of the body, it's much more effective. So in the raise hand example, we would say "use your
Zhong Chong point to seek the Lao Gong point".

Image

The points in the hands are especially sensitive, so it's not long before you get very clear feelings on those points. And that qi feeling can also inform the correctness of your movements, so that's an excellent side benefit.

So yeah, every step of the practice: learning the movement (ex. use zhong chong to chase lao gong), doing the 9 alignments (ex. if arm is relaxed by the side, to drop the shoulder and elbow, don't force them down muscularly, then you'd be too stiff, just put mind on jian jing points in the middle of shoulder, then move mind to qu chi point on the outside of elbows, you should immediately feel hands becoming heavy), develop 3 external integration (ex. when stepping forward, think yang hip and yang shoulder (opposing limb to yang/free leg), then yang knee to yang elbow, then yang foot to yang hand...), 3 internal integration (ex. in high pat the horse, don't put mind on arm that touches opponent, think you want to high five someone stand on the other side of him), develop feeling for the constant fluctuation of your center, mind training to ignore the trouble spot and move something else, that's all done using Xin Fa (mind technique). Hence the name internal practice.

In Qigong you are guiding movement of qi with mind, in internal martial art you're guiding physical movement with the mind. The principle is the same, have that intention, but don't force anything. Hence the saying "don't help ("help the crop grow by pulling on it") but don't forget". Everything is done with the mind. This is the complete meaning of the phrase "use your mind not [direct muscle] force".

So every step of the way, Xinfa are the real secrets of the practice. That's why they're glossed over in most manuals. They're the time-savers (just think this one point on the body, automatically that make every part of the movements correct), the force multipliers, the key between a skill working sometimes, with some people, but not all the time...
Last edited by Wuyizidi on Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:24 am, edited 10 times in total.
勤学,苦练, 慎思, 明辨。
心与境寂,道随悟深。

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