Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Bao on Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:04 am

What Fu Zhongwen is talking about here is "where the incoming force is felt on our body" (力点 Li Dian) and "where our mind should be".
...
According to Daoist Taiji philosophy, our natural instinct is to solve the problem at the "trouble point" by directly exerting a force using that body part, either use a greater force to repel the force back (fight) or get away (flight).
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This approach, of two yangs contending at the same point, is called "double-weighted" in taiji the philosophy.


Seems like a good reasonable explanation, to not be double weighted on the point of contact, maintaining the ability to change. 8-)

Quite a basic idea in TCC. But mostly the whole body as a whole is separated into two parts of yin/yang, substantial/insubstantial. I rarely see teachers breaking this down into smaller areas as to a hand.
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Trick on Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:17 am

That was a looong but very good post, thanks
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Trick on Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:27 am

Wuyizidi’s post i mean, but yours post is also good Bao :)
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby vagabond on Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:29 am

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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:54 am

Bao wrote:
Quite a basic idea in TCC. But mostly the whole body as a whole is separated into two parts of yin/yang, substantial/insubstantial. I rarely see teachers breaking this down into smaller areas as to a hand.


I was talking about that on the double weighted thread. You can look at the front and back/top and bottom of hands and arms and legs and feet, and even (not sure how best to word it) segments of a limb. Like when they push with their hand, you press against their tricep to make the whole arm Yang, double weighted, weak and immobile and a very convenient handle.
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Steve James on Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:58 am

I think Wuyizidi’s essay is really insightful ... because I agree with most of his (?) points, but also because the examples illustrate clear ideas.

Afa as points on the hand, though, there are quite a few striking points that are used. The "jin" will be expressed at a particular point, and I'd describe that point as being "yang" with a corresponding "yin." In practice, that might entail the difference between using the palm-heel, palm-edge, back or front of the knuckles, etc. That's a question of intent; offense or defense.
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Bao on Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:26 am

oragami_itto wrote:
Bao wrote:
Quite a basic idea in TCC. But mostly the whole body as a whole is separated into two parts of yin/yang, substantial/insubstantial. I rarely see teachers breaking this down into smaller areas as to a hand.


I was talking about that on the double weighted thread. You can look at the front and back/top and bottom of hands and arms and legs and feet, and even (not sure how best to word it) segments of a limb. Like when they push with their hand, you press against their tricep to make the whole arm Yang, double weighted, weak and immobile and a very convenient handle.


Oh... Will take a look at it then.

Steve James wrote:I think Wuyizidi’s essay is really insightful ... because I agree with most of his (?) points, but also because the examples illustrate clear ideas.

Afa as points on the hand, though, there are quite a few striking points that are used. The "jin" will be expressed at a particular point, and I'd describe that point as being "yang" with a corresponding "yin." In practice, that might entail the difference between using the palm-heel, palm-edge, back or front of the knuckles, etc. That's a question of intent; offense or defense.


Don’t believe that this has much to do with offense or defense, but more about the angle of pressure on the touch of contact and how to balance it. It might be useful as a punch, but maybe it’s better to think about how to apply the eight energies or skills. Look at your hand or limb as a tool more than a hand or a limb when it connects with the opponent’s hand or limb. You don’t direct a tool as a saw or a sword by the point of contact, but from a point that creates the best leverage and control of the same tool.
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Wuyizidi on Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:15 am

This gets into levels of circles and how to coordinate them in fighting.

Basic idea is the whole body is one big yin-yang ball - yin and yang are present at the same time, all the time. If you're just "yielding" (we never use that word for taiji in Chinese) and not doing anything else, that's just pure yin, not taiji.

Then each part of the body can be its own taiji. And each of those parts can be further broken down...

Example: someone pushes your right upper arm with their left hand, the push is slightly imperfect, as his force is slightly more force on the outside of your arm bone.

Overall yin yang: the side under pressure - right, is yin. Your mind should be on the left side, you move your left hand forward, upward, and right to trigger WHOLE BODY rotation to the right.

yang within yin arm: even though the right arm is yin, you want to feed him misinformation, you want him to push you as hard as before so you can borrow his force (unless he commits his weight, he won't lose balance), so as he make contact with you, you just have this idea "I want to touch his body with tip of my index finger".


Arm yin yang:
within your yin arm (right), the upper arm under pressure stays yin, your lower arm that's not being pressed is yang. You raise your lower arm and softly touch that forearm to the inside and underside of his pushing arm. You just think "I want to raise my hand to tuck in a stray hair on that side of my head". Now you have yang within yin, as in taiji diagram.

more circle within circle: what else can you do to add the outward nudge, what other part of yin arm can you move? You can move parts of your hand, there are parts that are in contact already with his forearm, those can't move, but you can rotate other parts so that overall your right hand is rotating, nudging his forearm upward and outward...

Result: that small upward, outward pressure at his elbow and forearm nudges him outward enough so that instead of his hand being flush with front of your upper arm, the elbow is now slightly outside of his wrist and your arm, the palm hollow with newly opened space, he's no longer in a comfortable, optimum forward straight pushing position (grab a pole with right hand, push against it, now bend that elbow so when viewed from above, the elbow is outside of wrist, now try push). Add to that your overall rotation, your body is now at an angle (that pole is now moving backwards while rotating away to your left). So that before he was pushing straight against a wall, now he's more like facing the corner of a building, and pushing one of the sides. His push doesn't do anything. And if he pushes really hard, either he slips and falls forward, or he pushes himself out to a side.

When we do all of this, the movements have to be coordinated, one part cannot get ahead of others. Meaning the amount of power we're exerting at the overall level, the arm, the hand, has to be proportional. So overall it's the backward and rotation to the right that makes that push untenable, the nudge break the grip, and forward index finger touch that makes him want to push hard. If we do any of the arm and finger movements too big, than it breaks the overall circle, and then the technique will not work well.

So this is what Chen Xin talks about when he says circle within circle. Fighting is like question and answer, the opponent says if I push you here what happens? You response, the more complex and nuanced it is, the harder it is for him to deal with. All of these counter questions he needs to respond to, in the appropriate order, if he's to focused on a smaller component while ignoring a bigger trend, then he will be in trouble.

At higher levels, it's whoever's overall circle is bigger, who can generate more circles wins. How many circles can we generate depends on how detailed, how sensitive we are with each part of the body. Since we are not fighting directly force against force, we're always asking, "ok so this part he's attacking we can't move directly, what other parts are free that we can move to solve this problem?"

So it's a different mindset - I'm not going to fight you the way you have set up the fight, I'm giving you an answer you expect, I'm going to break your question: instead of exerting a force on your pushing hand, I'm going to do something to your elbow and forearm so even though your hand is still in contact with my arm, you can't push straight like you wanted to anymore. So this is what is meant by kong dong - make the touch point empty/moot.

So real Taiji skill is not so much about "defeating" the opponent's strength, but finding ways to make that strength moot. In the above example, as soon as his grip has changed, it doen't matter how strong he continues to push. If you try to move a heavy weight with a bad grip, you're only going to hurt yourself.

So the defeat comes is the opponent doesn't realize things have changed, and continue to do a thing that is no longer appropriate. So we say at elite levels, everyone is strong and fast. Then who wins depends on who is more sensitive and can react to changes in time.

What Taiji quan's gives us is a way of executing that change in a way that is very hard to detect, and part of it has to do with properly of the circle - any change a ball goes through, no matter how fast, is smooth and even in pace. When parts of movements are bigger than others, that abruptness can be easily detected by the opponent.

So this is another basic part of Taiji philosophy that practitioners need to know, Taiji uses this type of smooth, even changes called Zhuan Huan, whereas most martial arts use Cha Yi (directly flipping from one extreme to another). So in push hand when you see someone first push hard in direct opposition to stop an opponent's push, then suddenly empties that part and pulls the opponent forward, downward, and to the side, that is Cha Yi, not Taiji.
Last edited by Wuyizidi on Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:52 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:40 pm

Wuyizidi wrote:Then each part of the body can be its own taiji. And each of those parts can be further broken down.


Yes, THIS is what I was trying to say with my checkerboard analogy. Thank you for your eloquent explanation and example!
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby everything on Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:44 pm

it's interesting about the common ball example, because again we have this taijiquan stereotype (which seems apt). the ball essentially is staying in one place and controls its center. the tiger is on the outside. all fine and good. and fixed step fine for training. if someone can do that, great. it's not really "complete" if we use this same analogy and say bagua has the exact same ball and internal dynamics, but the ball is "proactive" and can move proactively. it is too hard to talk about, but it's impossible to separate the qigong aspect even if we just say, well, that is still this circle.
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:07 pm

covers a lot what Wuyizidi 's very informative post mentioned.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r2TkBYj4aI&t=144s
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby charles on Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:08 pm

Wuyizidi wrote:At higher levels, it's whoever's overall circle is bigger, who can generate more circles wins. How many circles can we generate depends on how detailed, how sensitive we are with each part of the body. Since we are not fighting directly force against force, we're always asking, "ok so this part he's attacking we can't move directly, what other parts are free that we can move to solve this problem?"


You've just stated the core of the method of Taijiquan.

Unfortunately, few recognize it as such: even fewer have an explicit method to accomplish it.
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby everything on Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:16 pm

windwalker wrote:covers a lot what Wuyizidi 's very informative post mentioned.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r2TkBYj4aI&t=144s


what is he saying when he is talking about the guy grabbing his wrist and he is moving his hand where his finger is point?
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Steve James on Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:37 pm

The floating ball example illustrates the physics of a ball in water. Ultimately, however, it is only a metaphor, and at best we can only try to imitate the results. I.e., we can be "like" a ball acted upon while it's in water --or floating. The physics of a ball on the ground is different, but we can imitate that too. We use the idea of the principle; we can't be spheres.

I don't know why tcc uses these particular images, or whether we're supposed to be the boat or the water in the saying. I do believe that all the sayings relate to a practical use. Yes, there are plenty of words written about non-martial issues. Imo, there has to be a way to connect the theory with the form and the application consistently. Examples help, but can't necessarily be taken literally.

I mean, in the tiger/ball example, isn't what it illustrates clear even if it weren't a ball? An inflated cone or cube in water would work somewhat the same, no? Well, except the tiger would have a chance? Be like sphere my friend. :)
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Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Postby Bao on Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:15 pm

charles wrote:
Wuyizidi wrote:At higher levels, it's whoever's overall circle is bigger, who can generate more circles wins. How many circles can we generate depends on how detailed, how sensitive we are with each part of the body. Since we are not fighting directly force against force, we're always asking, "ok so this part he's attacking we can't move directly, what other parts are free that we can move to solve this problem?"


You've just stated the core of the method of Taijiquan.

Unfortunately, few recognize it as such: even fewer have an explicit method to accomplish it.


This gent here uses these principles all of the time and demonstrates them in different ways. From 25 to 28 min into the vid there are are a few examples. (There are much more to study if you watch the whole 4 part series, but it’s all in Chinese.)



https://youtube.com/watch?v=nhLOk6DDPks
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