## Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

### Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

everything wrote:
windwalker wrote:covers a lot what Wuyizidi 's very informative post mentioned.

what is he saying when he is talking about the guy grabbing his wrist and he is moving his hand where his finger is point?

my own chinese is very limited, it would be better if one of the native speakers would offer some translation, which for the most part
they never seem to do...kinda weird..

Most could do what is shown with a little coaching and some hands on.
It's been covered already by many of the post but not shown directly....as with this teacher.

"In a Euclidean space of any number of dimensions, a plane is uniquely determined by any of the following: Three non-collinear points (points not on a single line). A line and a point not on that line. Two distinct but intersecting lines. "

"A circle is a simple closed shape. It is the set of all points in a plane that are at a given distance from a given point"

Think about what defines a plane with one of the points being virtual and then moving the circle as "Wuyizidi" explained.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

windwalker
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### Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

really interesting thanks. simple concept, but as many people said, not easy to do.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science

everything
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### Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Yang Style Essential 3:
"Sink the shoulders, drop the elbows, settle the wrist, extend the fingers"

Yang Style Taiji requires precise detailed movements.
The palm and arm points that Fu offers, are the passed down precise points,
that he personally received from Yang Chengfu,
of where & how the energy “from your feet to your legs, thru the waist,” exit your body.

How can you say you know Yang style if you don’t know the Yang style palm positions and points?
If you could, wouldn’t you like to know how and where the energy is intended to exit?

If you don’t know the precise palm points (and the physical sensation it creates in the palm),
then your Yang Taiji is imprecise.
And is also probably limp.
If your Taiji is limp how can you exert the right internal force?

Meaning your Taiji body may not be both soft and hard.
Your postures may not be expressing energy in the correct direction.
The relationship between the arm movements and body movements will lack coordination & flow.
In combat your defense could contain lots of unnecessary inefficient movements.

It is very, very difficult to truly understand the precision of Yang style
by just looking at a video or just understanding intellectually.
Yang Taiji is an intertwined mind body physical exercise.

It can be tedious and tough to understand and fulfill the requirements
even if you physically practice the combined mind body precision required.
But, if you don’t put in physical precision practice!—the odds of understanding Yang Taiji are drastically lowered.

If you don’t know the precise point the energy exits on ward-off
then your ward-off arm is likely to be applied on the wrong point
and at the wrong arm angle.
If you don’t know the precise point for rollback
then your rollback is not precise.

Basically, it is likely you will not be able to precisely distinguish the four fundamental movements of Grasp Sparrows Tail.
Some say those four fundamental movements are said to be the building blocks of all of Yang Taiji.

If you don’t learn and put in physical precision practice you lower your odds of building a solid Yang Taiji foundation.

How will you realistically judge Yang style Taiji if you don’t know precisely
what the requirement for the Yang movements should be?
How can you defend yourself with Yang Taiji that is incorrect?
If rushed by powerful opponents your structure is likely to collapse.
Or, could lack the suppleness need to read and adjust to pressure.

Yang Taiji is soft & firm, round & straight.
Your Taiji could lack the correct firmness.

Without precision how will you gain the correct touch?
How will you be able to wield the sword, saber, or staff based on such imperfect movements?

Do you think it would be a mistake to apply Yang style mechanics on Chen style?
If you do, then don't you think it would also be a mistake to apply Chen mechanics on Yang Style?

Things like the requirements for the chest and waist usage are different, etc.
Their strategies for defense are different.
It’s a small difference.
But miss by an inch of precision; off by a mile.

Plus, you’ll be missing out on the rapturous pleasure of your energy traveling down Yang's traditional pathways coursing through the body.

...Okay, maybe I might have went a little over the top with that last sentence but hopefully you get the point.

But the worse yet, you could practice incorrect Yang Taiji for 20 yrs.
And then form a mass following & pass it on to others as the real deal.
Last edited by Trip on Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
Trip
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### Re: Jindian, Jinlidian, Lidian?

Trip wrote:Do you think it would be a mistake to apply Yang style mechanics on Chen style?
If you do, then don't you think it would also be a mistake to apply Chen mechanics on Yang Style?

Things like the requirements for the chest and waist usage are different, etc.
Their strategies for defense are different.
It’s a small difference.
But miss by an inch of precision; off by a mile.

You've painted yourself into a logical corner.

One the one hand, one could argue that there is only one right way to do Yang style - or any of the other family styles of Taijiquan. There are, however, many variations in how people perform Yang style. If the premise that there is only one right way to do Yang style is correct, that means that all but one of those variations is wrong. How does one determine from all of those variations which is the one right one? Nearly every practitioner will tell you that theirs is the right one and that everyone else's is wrong. If there is only one right one, they can't all be right: none but one is right. Lots of practitioners have "lineage" that traces back to somebody important/famous, but there is still considerable variation from one lineage holder to another.

On the other hand, if one allows that there is some "correct" range of variation, within which practitioners are still practicing "right", where does that boundary lie between "right" and "wrong"? If there is some amount of correct variation within each family style, and some of the variations within one family style overlap the variations in another family style, then what is right for some variations of one family style is also right for some variations of another family style. For example, I've seen Yang variations that are very, very similar in implementation and strategy to some variations of Chen. (I've also seen variations within a family style where what is "right" for one variation is "wrong" for another.)
Last edited by charles on Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
charles
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