Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

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Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby LaoDan on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:38 am

https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/2019/01/11/qa-with-michael-babin/

In the above interview, Michael Babin stated:
In terms of the martial training in tai chi, one of the biggest challenges is finding a balanced approach to the issue of “being soft”. Many teachers, famous and not-so-famous, still tend to advocate that you can’t be too soft and I don’t think that’s correct.


I agree with Michael here, although I suppose that it depends on how one understands and defines fangsong. Although probably possible in extreme cases, I do not think that most humans can be too fangsong, but I think that many practitioners ARE too soft.

So, at the risk of opening the subject of fangsong up again, is there a quantifiable (or semi quantifiable) way to measure fangsong? What quality would one look for to measure fangsong or softness or relaxation? Are they different?

My preliminary thoughts on this are as follows:

If one understands fangsong as being relaxed (as many do, but I think is unsatisfactory), then perhaps fangsong could be measured through flexibility, which is related to muscle relaxation. But if one is anesthetized, their joints’ range of motion is greater than when muscle tone is maintained. I think some muscle tone is necessary, but how much can one release and still maintain sufficient control of one’s structure and keep the joints safe? Would measuring the range of motion of one’s wrist (with vs. without anesthesia) tell someone the degree of fangsong in that wrist?

For many using this approach (i.e., defining fangsong as “relaxed”), I think that they often relax too much and lose the protective and structural supporting aspects of muscle tonus. They often “collapse” or are too “limp” to be able to defend themselves satisfactorily or to issue great forces. But perhaps others on this forum think differently.

If one understands fangsong as being soft, then it may involve muscle relaxation, but does it also involve the “resilience” or “springiness” or “non-resistance” of the body (i.e., not being soft like a deflated ball, but being soft like a properly inflated and resilient rubber ball)? Resistance and stiffness seem to be the opposite of softness, and this typically involves tensing of the muscles, so could this also be measured in terms of muscle relaxation, or would some other quality need to be looked at? Would a measure of the gradualness of the resistance to being bent (if this could somehow be measured) be a way to measure this (without the comparison to the anesthetized range of motion)? If softness is like the quality of a rubber ball being compressed, then would it be analogous to being relaxed but not losing muscle tonus? How could this be measured?

If one understands fangsong as having open (loose and free to move)) joints, then this is closer to how I understand fangsong. While muscle tension also seems to play a part here, it also seems like there is more to this. One can be relaxed but maintain muscle tonus, but still be susceptible to sharp pain when receiving qinna joint locks, for example. But the pain from qinna is reduced when the joint being locked is “open” AND not tensed in resistance. Could this be a measure of fangsong?

As an example, I had attended a workshop where Bruce Kumar Frantzis asked for two volunteers for a qinna demonstration, one who was willing to have the other apply it on them, and the person applying the qinna being someone who had studied it and who could apply a proper wrist lock on the other volunteer. After applying the qinna in order to show the pain response to a properly applied joint lock, Frantzis did a demonstration. He had the person relax the lock enough for Frantzis to slip his finger between the heel of the hand and the wrist that was being bent towards that person’s forearm. When the qinna lock was subsequently reapplied, the recipient did not feel the pain that he had previously.

My understanding of the above is that the first application of the wrist lock compressed or CLOSED the joint. The second version made the wrist OPEN when it used Frantzis’ finger as a pivot. Is this the quality that we should have for fangsong if defining it as open joints? The recipient was the same person and presumably had the same level of muscle tension (or tonus), but the change was in how open his wrist joint was. Can this quality be measured scientifically, or are we just left with receiving joint locks and determining how painful or sudden the onset of pain is?

There is one other experience that I should relate since it influences my thoughts on this topic. There is a TJQ practitioner in my area that had too loose joints as a child, so bad that she needed braces to stabilize her structure until physical therapy could strengthen her muscles enough to support and stabilize her joints (i.e., TOO fangsong?). Although no longer needing aids, she is still extremely flexible in her joints, so much so that I was able to use her as a training partner for qinna practice (applications of the choreographed san shou partner form) without fearing causing her any pain. But since she does not spar or do other practices that involve issuing power (AFAIK), I do not know if her level of joint openness (fangsong?) is detrimental to her structure or power today. But she may illustrate that in extreme cases one could possible be too fangsong.

Any thoughts from forum members (with the great variety of experiences and approaches represented) would be appreciated.

Edit:
Is joint wear (e.g., leading to knee or hip replacement, for example) an indication of joints being too closed and therefore insufficient fangsong? Conversely, would being prone to joint dislocations (e.g., shoulders) indicate being too fangsong? Are these joint issues even related to fangsong?
Last edited by LaoDan on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:41 am

Yes.
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby origami_itto on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:35 am

Definitely. The two main errors are resisting and letting go.

If you learn to follow but not how to turn that into leading, that's too soft.

I don't believe the problem is being too song. Actually, I remember somebody chinese writing about this, one sec.

Zhan Yun wrote:http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/Z-N-L-S/arti_znls.htm
7. Common Mistakes
Ding
Bian
Diu
Kang

When we do these four basic skills, there are four kinds of likely mistakes, Ding, Bian, Diu, and Kang. Ding and Kang will happen when you do something too much,
usually called Guo. Bian and Dui will happen when you do something not enough, usually called Buji. For the beginners, to do Gou is very common mistake. Usually it
means too hard or tight. For the advance students, to do Buji is very common mistake. Usually it means too weak or loose.

When you start to understand Taiji Quan but your skills are not good enough, these mistakes happen in almost everywhere. The reason is that you cannot relax well
and your sensitivity is not good enough. If you cannot relax well, you cannot follow your opponent smoothly. If your sensitivity is not good enough, you will always lose
change or use your mind too much. To understand and avoid these common mistakes is very important for improving your skills.

The most common mistake in Zhan application is usually Ding - to go against on touching point. It means that your force is in the reverse direction of your opponent's
force too much. In Taiji Quan, you should avoid to use your force resisting your opponent's force directly. But in Zhan if the timing and direction of your force are wrong,
the part of your force will be used to against to the opponent's force, so that you cannot follow your opponent well. In this case he can even feel and get you. The reason
is your sensitivity may be not good enough or you do not understand Taiji Quan principles well. If you cannot find the right timing and direction from your opponent's
reaction, you cannot really borrow his force, and worse thing is that your force will help him to regain his balance. At that time, your opponent's reaction force can even
give you trouble easily.

The most common mistake in Nian application is usually Bian - weak or flat. It means that you do not do Nian enough so that you do not get enough information from
your opponent and you will not know which way you should go. When Bian happens, your opponent can go away from your control easily. In Nian, if you cannot find the
weak point from your opponent and make him fall into bad position little by little, that means you cannot make trouble to him continually, it is said your hand too weak.
So you cannot control your opponent finally.

The most common mistake in Lian application is usually Diu - lose the touching point. It means that your opponent can get away or you cannot follow him any more.
When Diu happens, you lose contact and cannot follow him continually. So you cannot feel him well and you cannot find a chance to control him. To do Lian, if you
cannot relax well, you will be easy to lose the touching point and let your opponent get away. In this case you lose contact so that you cannot use your sensitivity.

The most common mistake in Sui application is usually Kang - resist in the touching point. It means that you cannot follow your opponent so that you and your
opponent are in resisting case. In this case, who is stronger who will have more chance to win. It is not follow Taiji Quan principle. In Sui, if you resist and cannot follow
your opponent, you cannot get a chance to adjust yourself without to use big force. So your opponent can get you easily if he is stronger, faster, or just in a better
position than you.

Usually, many people just like simply to use Ding and Diu to explain these general mistakes in their Taiji Quan practice. Here Ding (here it is same as Guo) means
too hard, too much, too far, resist, or excessive. When you want to control your opponent but do too much, you make this mistake. Diu (here it is same as Buji) means
too weak, no enough, short, lose, leave, or deficiency. When you want to relax but do too much, you make this mistake. In fact, Ding (or Guo) and Diu (or Buji) are the
human's nature actions. They just like two extreme points of human's behave. They are used in most martial arts skills. When you attack with a big force, it is Ding.
When you dodge or move away, it is Dui. They are the right way there. But Taiji Quan skill require everything you do must be exactly right according to the principle, like
just enough and never waste your energy, and the most efficiency way. So that to use these two points will become a wrong way in Taiji Quan. For avoiding do them,
you should get a special training. In fact almost all training methods of Taiji Quan are designed to avoid them. In the nature behave, you can only jump from one point
to the other, that means from the view of Taiji Quan you are either too much (too hard) or no enough (too weak). Taiji Quan training will change this natural action. From
the training, you will study how to balance your skill and close to the center point that means to do neither Ding (or Guo) nor Diu (or Buji). We can simply use a figure to
show this situation.
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:43 am

Thoughts on the subject from Byron Zhang.

Genius Asian
Published on Apr 17, 2013

Song Kong Yuan Man
In this video, Master Byron Zhang explains "Song Kong Yuan Man". Which means "Relax, relaxation, emptiness, filled full. Rounded".

Note that other Tai Chi styles may have different interpretation of this same topic, we hope people can appreciate this version:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiM_8qB5bmk
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby windwalker on Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:06 pm

marvin8 wrote:Thoughts on the subject from Byron Zhang.

Genius Asian
Published on Apr 17, 2013

Song Kong Yuan Man
In this video, Master Byron Zhang explains "Song Kong Yuan Man". Which means "Relax, relaxation, emptiness, filled full. Rounded".

Note that other Tai Chi styles may have different interpretation of this same topic, we hope people can appreciate this version:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiM_8qB5bmk


Byron, good friend of mine, he practices a rather unique style called water style taiji.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkH9JNBM6Jg

Regarding soft.

It allows one to be sensitive and react according to the degree or level of sensitivity.
In answer to the question "can one be too soft" no, its a continual process in order to negate ones own force within
ones body.

Ben Lo, recently passed

During push hands, Lo, who has practiced over 40 years, said the goal is to use internal strength and to avoid the use of force. "Usually, I tell my students don't use force. Instead, use sung. How do you translate sung? Relaxation is not an exact translation. Relaxation can just be collapse but that is not the meaning of sung."

Lo said there are different degrees of relaxation and that in push hands this often becomes apparent. "If you meet someone who is better at push hands, then you become hard. When they meet someone who is better than them, they become hard. That's the reason we have to practice and practice. It is a lifetime challenge. There is no end."

He also said that softness can be like water, which can become very strong, or wind, which is soft, but can have the power of a tornado and destroy a city.

As to how a student can combine and separate softness and strength, he said: "The student has to slowly practice. practice. And practice."

http://www.wuweitaichi.com/articles/Ben ... Basics.htm
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby Steve James on Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:38 pm

Soft and hard are relative. Theoretically, there must always be a combination of soft and hard. However, I'd argue that there's a big difference between being soft and not being hard enough. Tcc must have hard, but can't depend on being harder. It's always possible to be softer than an opponent. Whether one can translate softness into something usable in a martial context is the trick.
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby Bao on Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm

I do have a little bit different view. There's a value in exploring the whole range from too soft to too hard. First then you will understand how far you can go before softness of hardness becomes a hindrance for maintaining the integrity of Tai chi principles.

But IMO too hard or too soft is not a very good question. It misses the mark. Can you maintain rooting, balance, movability and function of structure? If you can, you are not too soft.

In physics, structure is connected to function. As long as you can maintain the structural integrity you'll keep function intact. So when you compromise your structure by being limp it's obviously wrong as you compromise function. When you lose your structure completely it's not longer a question about only being too soft, it's more a matter of that your Tai Chi sucks.

Structure in Tai Chi though is not fixed or stiff, it's something flexible and function depends on that it can move. Movement in Tai chi depends on loose joints and sinews that have complete freedom of movement, so being too stiff and compromising the freedom of movement or being at the risk of breaking the structure is also wrong.
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby Steve James on Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:41 pm

If your opponent outweighs you by 100 lbs, it's usually useless to try to be harder than he is. Otoh, if you outweigh him by 100 lbs, being soft is his problem. ;)
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:16 pm

Soft has to do with training it has little to do with fighting
If you train the right way the power will be there
Too soft is usually in the way you approach the way you train or fight
You can't be too technically soft
It is bad structure that makes people soft or hard in various places
Hollows and projections
Bad combat training makes people soft or deficient in a fight
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby Steve James on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:29 pm

Some quotes from various chapters in The Art of War.

21. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.

40. If our troops are no more in number than the enemy, that is amply sufficient; it only means that no direct attack can be made. What we can do is simply to concentrate all our available strength, keep a close watch on the enemy, and obtain reinforcements.

15. Other conditions being equal, if one force is hurled against another ten times its size, the result will be the flight of the former.

19. If it is to your advantage, make a forward move; if not, stay where you are.

http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby Giles on Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:54 am

I can go with Steve, Bao and Wayne on this. Their various statements are from slightly different perspectives but do not contradict each other, to my mind.

In the moments and in the ways that it’s good to be soft, then you cannot be too soft. Then the softer the better. This usually involves moments of defending and transforming the force of the opponent. As Bao and Wayne rightly point out, being soft does NOT mean losing your structure/internal alignment. Being soft in the right way helps you to synergize with gravity and makes your structure better, not worse. It doesn’t necessarily mean avoiding, giving way. It certainly doesn’t mean retreating or missing an opportunity to attack.

The moment of maximum softness may sometimes last (much) less than 1 second, the resulting yielding may sometimes take place in a very small space (centimetres, millimetres) but this moment changes everything. As a metaphor, it’s like the moment, or point, that a beam of light hits a prism and is refracted into a rainbow. OK, the light is linear and the vectors affected by and created by softness are mostly curves, but maybe the image is useful.

The softer the body is, the faster and more precisely it can accommodate, follow, change and counter-attack. The softness lessens or removes the ‘static’, the ‘white noise’, in the body’s proprioception and muscular responses. This without involvement by parts of the brain/mind that should be staying out of the process. The ‘thinking’ mind doesn’t do it; the cerebellum does most of the work, drawing on good and consistent training. If the body is soft in a correct way, it will also become much heavier, while simultaneously nimble. This enables the (counter)attack to be hard and heavy. You can still feel subjectively ‘soft’, and probably are measurably so, but the impact on the opponent doesn’t feel soft for him.

All joints should be ‘soft’, including shoulders, elbows and wrists, but the most important place to be soft is in the hip joints. The yielding and accommodation to force by the hips is generally more important than anywhere else (assuming you are on your feet and not on the ground).

In essence: body is soft, mind is hard/focussed. This is what enables physical hardness to arise from physical softness, without the softness being abandoned in the process.

These observations are not taken from books, they are the result of practical experience.
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby Steve James on Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:23 pm

The saying goes something like "softness can overcome hardness."

For ex., there's an art called "soft fist" or "rou quan."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4TnQf9LFXs

What's "soft" about it? It doesn't have the same technique as tcc, though
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby LaoDan on Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:18 pm

Here is what a translation of a Yang Zhendo instructional video gave:
Today there are many practitioners of Yang style Taijiquan, and unfortunately many have not fully comprehended the meaning of fang song, and they misinterpret its meaning. This is because song (relax or loosen) and ruan (soft) were put into the same category. Many think that song is ruan. What we consider as song is not ruan. Song requires that the joints and the muscles be intentionally letting loose, and extended.

And:
Everyone should comprehend fully the meaning of fang song, let loose, in practice. One should be loose and extended, not loose and soft.

I would still be curious if anybody thought that fangsong is quantifiable (rather than being subjective or relative), and if so, then what instruments would be measuring what.
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby robert on Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:32 pm

LaoDan wrote:I would still be curious if anybody thought that fangsong is quantifiable (rather than being subjective or relative), and if so, then what instruments would be measuring what.

I suspect it is, at least to some extent, but haven't looked into the limitations. There have been references to some research papers regarding muscle recrutement (eccentric contraction), and would think they use EMG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromyography

An EEG might be used as well to see if the mind is calm/relaxed.

http://chentaijiquanworld.blogspot.com/2014/07/
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Re: Can one be “too soft” in TJQ?

Postby everything on Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:45 pm

If we think about the opposite of fangsong, it's probably something like excessive tension or rigidity. That isn't because a joint has some specific position in terms of where the bones are located; it's because of excessive muscular tension.

In the push hands scenario, the person with less skill tenses up. This doesn't necessarily require a specific joint position. We can be lying down with "open" joints and still tense. We can put one joint at the end of the ROM and still be not tense.
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