Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby Bao on Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:55 am

Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:if the Earl Montague's taiji is the whole real deal taijiquan, they can have it for themself


Well it's not, so you don't need to worry about that. He merely put together small pieces from here and there and made up a whole lot of things.

yes thats how i inderstand it. was that interview made public by him? if so i wouldnt take it seriously


No. It was made in the middle of the seventies, apparently by someone named Hu. Erle didn't go to China and HK until the 80s.

If Erle had made up that interview it would have looked differently. Now through this interview we know that Erle didn't practice a lot with Chang or maybe not at all, because there is a lot here that contradicts Erle's own claims.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby Trick on Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:09 am

salcanzonieri wrote:okay, yeah, but pretty much everyone went far away from the original intention of my first post on the first page. And only Bao seems to understand me, i think,

What I am saying is that I believe that one can improve one's knowledge and then skill and then ability by understanding the roots of where one's martial art come from.
(The Okinawan and Japanese karate people went far back to their Chinese roots to refresh their art and to improve its' efficiency and effectiveness)

For me, over the span of 35 years, I learned Shaolin martial arts first, like Louhan and Taizhu Chang Quan and Hong Quan and Tong Bei. Then Shuai Jiao, and then internal Shaolin like Chang Yuan Gong and Luohan 13 Postures Gong and Rou Gong and Rou Quan. and THEN, when I learned Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua, I picked it up quicker and understood the forms better because I saw right away that i already learned most of it, just the big 3 internal arts had a different ("Taoist") strategy. The Big 3 Internal Chinese Martial Arts were essentially Shuai Jiao & Shaolin mechanics with Taoist Internal Arts moving strategy, in the long run.
And, it served me well, around the world, in self defense situations, as necessary. Even when stuck in middle of a riot in Germany. When I moved it was all one merged style, I felt where the Shuai Jiao (root of Shaolin), Shaolin, XYQ, TJQ, BGZ converged, in that order. A self defense movement was all at once being in all those styles at the same time.

So, as an experiment, recently, a 73 year old woman that learned the internal Shaolin sets named above with me for the last 10 years and had as a result strong lower dantein Qi movement and internal strength wanted to learn Yang Long form. She got the YCF long form in 4 weeks, she understood, from the internal forms we practiced for 10 years the antecedents of the postures and movements (example, for Brush Knee Twist Step, all I had to say was "oh, it's just the 2nd movement in the Chan Yuan Gong we did all these years) and she got it with minimal struggle. So, now we moved on to doing an "Old Yang" middle frame set that makes the YCF set seem too easy.

So, I would love to show people the missing "13 Postures" form, sometimes called The Yang Small Frame/Fast Form is still in existence in it's original form in these Shaolin Qigong sets, and if you examine them, you can not only understand the body mechanics of the Chen and Yang (and Wu, etc) forms, but you can see the applications right away, because in Shaolin you can fight (as in use Self defense) with Qi Gong sets as well as their Boxing sets. In fact, you can use a staff with these Qigong sets, the 13 postures, which means you can turn the TJQ long form into a staff form by just being shown this and understanding this and opening your mind to a whole other thing that is inherent inside the Long Form but locked away because TJQ practitioners today don't know the roots of their style. I am sure some people do. Some monks like Shi Di Gen has shown me that they know it and the Wu Gu Lin school knows it..
Famous master Zhang Ce understood it, and did many others, like Sun Lu Tang.

well, i had practiced karate for many years prior taking up taijiquan and xingyiquan. karate taught body coordination in such a good way that picking up TJQ&XYQ(atleast the outer forms(forms&applications) quite easy. as far as similarities of movements with our (similar)four limbs i can not see as something revelutionary extraordonary. But i do would like to see your " original" smal frame 13 postures set, just to see how similar it is to another "original" 13 posture form i have in mind..........About doing the taiji(yang) form with a staff ive seen done by a student of Earl Montague. im not an expert with the staff but that form was just no no
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby Bao on Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:10 am

What I am saying is that I believe that one can improve one's knowledge and then skill and then ability by understanding the roots of where one's martial art come from.


From a practical POV, different exercises and methods from different traditions tend to isolate principles in different ways. Speaking about body use that is. If you can trace what you do, you can get a clearer appreciation of different mechanics and body use from older exercises.

The problem with an art as Tai Chi is that it's so darn complex. There are layers and layers of methods and mechanics from many different exercises and traditions that have melted together. And then later, the sum of what's in this pot is in turn interpreted again in other, new ways.

What is contained in Tai Chi movements? What do you need for tai chi body mechanics?

    - Deep core leg strength
    - Understanding how to use and open the kua
    - Use of Dantian
    - Use of deep breath
    - Use of lower ribs
    - Use of spine
    - Use of scapula
    - Whole body coordination and understanding of the six correlations (Liuhe)
    - Understanding of kai/he
    - Understanding of "pre heavenly principle" of movement
    - Understanding of mind, yi and shen
    - Coordinating breath, mind and body.
    - And more? (what did I forget?)

You really need individual exercises for each and one of these things listed above. You need to isolate and practice different principles separated and then again different ways to put them together.

But Tai Chi practice today normally doesn't have individual sets for everything, so if you can't get what you need, it's good to borrow exercises from Tongbei, Bagua, Shaolin and others. Also remember that "style" and "systems" is modern invention. In older days different forms and exercises had names, but not systems of exercises. They were not that fixed. In earlier days, this was how martial arts were practiced, not as isolated systems, but by practicing different, related exercises from here and there.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:24 pm

Trick wrote:well, i had practiced karate for many years prior taking up taijiquan and xingyiquan. karate taught body coordination in such a good way that picking up TJQ&XYQ(atleast the outer forms(forms&applications) quite easy. as far as similarities of movements with our (similar)four limbs i can not see as something revelutionary extraordonary. But i do would like to see your " original" smal frame 13 postures set, just to see how similar it is to another "original" 13 posture form i have in mind..........About doing the taiji(yang) form with a staff ive seen done by a student of Earl Montague. im not an expert with the staff but that form was just no no


Here's the Shaolin Louhan 13 Postures Rou Quan set I learned (I didn't mention a original small frame, I mentioned a original Yang middle frame form, and I don't have a video of it,

Last edited by salcanzonieri on Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby Trick on Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:34 pm

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:his method seemingly limited to bone breaking and more sinister way, so sinister he cant talk about them.....one sided skill


One sided? I don't get that feeling from reading the interview (encountered this interview many years ago and have read it a few times) But one-sided is what Chang Yiu-Chun claims about YCF Tai Chi.

"When my teacher used to do his T'ai chi ch'uan, we would often say that he was like a canon shot one second and like the great river in the next second. He was very energetic. The Yeung Cheng-po style is all soft and flowing with no canon shots. "

"He (YCF) was quite large and strong and he could also be quite brutal in his pushing hands but he learnt the original style first."

What he says is that the YCF Tai Chi was YCF's own invention and that he discarded half of the art and made some practice (san shou) less brutal. From having both sides, YCF style had only one side, the soft one. Chang Yiu-Chun also says that they practiced PH for sensitivity but that they put emphasis on combat early. This doesn't make Yang Shaohou only brutal or only hard. Instead he says that what he did had both sides, the soft and flowing as well.

"Many people watched him (YCF) practice the original style and he even taught a few people. But when he invented his own style and changed it over a few years, all of his students forgot about the original style. "

This though is a simplification, because most of YCF's top students also studied with Yang Jianhou and/or Yang Shouhou. So to say that they received and taught only the soft side is wrong. Methods and exercises from Yang Shaohou is still taught in YCF lineages.

Oh, BTW, Erle Montaigue clams that Chang Yiu-Chun was his teacher. He probably met him briefly in 1981, doubt that it was his teacher for any extensive period. There are no other sources on this person than the interview, so some people says that it was Erle who made him up. But as the interview is said to be from the middle of the seventies, I doubt it. Erle probably got very inspired by it though.

Would like more about who did the interview. I've read a mentioning about that it was someone with the family name "Hu".

heres my honest belief. YCF made public the "secret" practice of taijiquan(the slow flow) he put it out inplain sight. of course students needed the right instruction how to put ones mind into the exercise, and that was still kept for a selected few. YCF teaching is not one sided, its the method that has it all, for the clever an diligent student.- since the mysterious chan yiu chun didnt recognize YCF's teachings i read as he only knew the rudimentary shaolin'ish "taijiquan* of the Yang family, his method was one sided, 8-)
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby Bao on Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:17 am

of course students needed the right instruction how to put ones mind into the exercise, and that was still kept for a selected few.


Directing the mind through the body, developing body awareness, and coordinating mind and movement is very much standard practices in all YCF lineages. Hardly secrets or things kept away for few.

YCF teaching is not one sided, its the method that has it all, for the clever an diligent student


What Chang speak about is probably mostly how YCF taught in public for the larger classes. His closer students should have received the whole package. But again, more or less all of his closest students also studied with Yang Jianhou and/or Yang Shaohou. So the practice from most YCF genuine lineages should be pretty complete practice according to what was developed from YLC to YCF.

since the mysterious chan yiu chun didnt recognize YCF's teachings i read as he only knew the rudimentary shaolin'ish "taijiquan* of the Yang family, his method was one sided


I don't get that feeling that he only knew some hard rudimentary stuff. Again, what he speaks about is probably mostly how YCF taught larger groups in public. If you read the whole interview again, you should know that he does indeed recognise YCFs soft teaching, though he says that YCF had dropped the tougher sides of the practice.

The kind of Sanshou practice Chang spoke about though is more or less standard in older TCMA, so I don't doubt that this was how they practiced. You can probably still find it (we do something similar but surely friendlier). But I sincerely doubt that the "secret evil stuff" is the kind of Dim Mak Erle made up.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby Trick on Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:22 am

Bao wrote:
of course students needed the right instruction how to put ones mind into the exercise, and that was still kept for a selected few.


Directing the mind through the body, developing body awareness, and coordinating mind and movement is very much standard practices in all YCF lineages. Hardly secrets or things kept away for few.



the methods how to do that i believe was made public by some of YCF's students(diciples)
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby Bao on Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:36 am

Trick wrote:the methods how to do that i believe was made public by some of YCF's students(diciples)


I know that Li Yaxuan and Fu Zhongwen taught the same methods openly. Their students writes about the same practices, though Fu Zhongwen taught how to focus on different colors, something I've never heard about in other lineages. But otherwise, it seems to be pretty much the same, and in CMC as well. And it's virtually the same in Sun and Wu (jianquan). So personally, I can't see that these things have been something kept away, rather that it's not taught in larger groups for practical reasons.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby Trick on Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:38 am

read not long time ago about Ye Dami how he learned and practiced three traditions/styles/linages? From Tian Zhaolin he studied TJQ from which he apriciated the practical applications, from Sun Lutang &son he studied innerteachings/neigung, and from Li Linglin he learned the wudang sword....From this it seem that Ye Dami appriciated the "inner"teachings of Sun rather than that from the Yang tradition, or he was never taught the inner teachings of the Yang taijiquan......As have been pointed out previously Ye Dami was the initial teacher of Zeng Manqing
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:05 pm

I trained under two direct students of YCF both were made students of his son after his death
Neither were happy about it
The same thing can be taught to a thousand students and only be grasped by one
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby cloudz on Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:21 am

It's also important to distinguish between family, student and disciple.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby salcanzonieri on Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:32 am

I have made a complete chart, with SIDE BY SIDE postures comparing the Chen Yi LU set with the Song Tai Zhu Chang Quan set and the Xie Quan / Xinyi Quan set.
See the URL for the PDF file.

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/images/comparison%20Chen%20TJQ%20vs%20Shaolin%20TZQ%20and%20XYQ.pdf


You will be very surprised!
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby salcanzonieri on Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:35 am

the ancient Shaolin Xie Xing Quan routine, practiced in Zhengzhou (郑州) and its environs. Zhengzhou is a major city about fifty kilometers northeast of Shaolin, about forty kilometers to the east of the village of Chen (陈家句) and the town of Zhaobao (赵堡镇). this linage is currently in Kaifeng (开封) and Jiazhai (贾寨) under the name of Shaolin Xiexingquan (少林斜行拳) - Shaolin Slanted Walking Boxing, or ‘Xiexingquan of the old school of Shaolin Xinyi’ (少林古传心意邪行拳).
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