Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

[HotSoup]

...
the Wu/Hao TJQ style not only moves with the body mechanics of but also incorporates postures from Shaolin Rou Quan. I can clearly see it.
...

Why not the other way around? Most of the modern Shaolin is a knock-off of Northern styles and sports wushu, what makes you believe Rouquan is not a knock-off of Wu/Hao?

[HotSoup]

2. Also, after reviewing so, so many "Original" Yang, Imperial Yang, Palace Yang, and like 10 other ones claiming to have an older Yang Long form that was close to what Yang Lu Chan taught, NONE OF THEM at all use this Shaolin frame that Chen Fake/Yang Chen Fu TJQ does.
WOULDN'T they being "older" be MORE like Chen style, hence following the Chen postures closer? But NO, none of them do at all. What does this mean?

The big problem with all those so-called "original" Yang forms is that they really don’t have much to do with modern Yang, nor with one another. Which makes me skeptical about their authenticity. If it's not authentic, what's the point to take them into account at all?

[wiesiek]

is it really important which is original if works? /for fighter not historicist/
Form/s/ are build from independent, working elements stacks together.
Maybe I`m heretic , but in my opinion anybody /with the solid MA base of course /could assemble his own form, best for his personal use/preference.
We have contemporary example - 24 TJ form.

[salcanzonieri]

...
the Wu/Hao TJQ style not only moves with the body mechanics of but also incorporates postures from Shaolin Rou Quan. I can clearly see it.
...

Why not the other way around? Most of the modern Shaolin is a knock-off of Northern styles and sports wushu, what makes you believe Rouquan is not a knock-off of Wu/Hao?

Oh. because Shaolin has, and I have copies, and the Shaolin Encyclopedia has the names of the postures and movements and the directions how to do them and the drawings that have been preserved by people at Shaolin from before TJQ started. Rou Quan is much older.

Rou Quan is nothing like sports wushu or knook-off modern northern styles, etc, etc, Rou Quan and the cluster of related qigongs and sets (Chan Yuan Qong and Chan Yuan Quan, Luohan 13 Postures Rou Gong, Rou Qong, Rou Quan 1-3, etc) are all slow and have all the principles of and move like taiji quan)

[windwalker]

is it really important which is original if works? /for fighter not historicist/
Form/s/ are build from independent, working elements stacks together.
Maybe I`m heretic , but in my opinion anybody /with the solid MA base of course /could assemble his own form, best for his personal use/preference.
We have contemporary example - 24 TJ form.

The 24 step a bad example considering who made it and why it was made.

Understanding your point, the importance lies in what one is advocating or advertising as a method of practice.

It's kind of the problem CMA has now with those claiming the mantle of specific styles and then going out to use them with spectacular fails.

Unfortunately there are no counterpoints to point to in which the aforementioned arts succeed.

Hence the quest for original practices in which historically it's claimed it did.

[Steve James]

Rou Quan is much older.

I agree that Shaolin martial arts are older than TCC. "All Chinese martial arts are sons of the same mother." (By implication, all Chinese martial artists are brothers. But, that'd be another thread, and be about as likely as convincing humans they were connected). It's all very Confusion .

but in my opinion anybody /with the solid MA base of course /could assemble his own form, best for his personal use/preference.
We have contemporary example - 24 TJ form.

Yes, and no no no . Sure, if someone has a solid base, he could make up his/her personal form. Some would argue that he should. However, imo, his base wouldn't change. And it all depends on what the person intends the form to do or what he intends to do with it.

Why a form is created must be similar to why forms were created in the first place. We can basically agree that they started as the linking together of single movements. Linking them together also had a positive effect on the body. People remembered and wanted to pass them on to the next generation.

It is probably true that the sequence of forms derived from Shaolin is because it was found to work, or was said to work. Otoh, people have extracted partial sequences and found that they work too. That might seem heretical, except that people use the form to help their lives, not tcc. Starting out with a short form can be an introduction to a longer form. Doing the form was never the end all of tcc practice. But, it is more than enough to have positive effects on the elderly.

The other issue is "how" people do the form. Fortunately, that is the one area where the consensus is disagreement. I.e., everybody knows that everybody else is doing it wrong.

[Trick]

Why not the other way around? Most of the modern Shaolin is a knock-off of Northern styles and sports wushu, what makes you believe Rouquan is not a knock-off of Wu/Hao?

Oh. because Shaolin has, and I have copies, and the Shaolin Encyclopedia has the names of the postures and movements and the directions how to do them and the drawings that have been preserved by people at Shaolin from before TJQ started. Rou Quan is much older.

‘Shaolin Encyclopedia’ - when was that put together?……When Doshin So the founder of Shorinji-Kempo where at the Shaolin temple there apparently was not much boxing going on there, he kind of just copied the postures he saw on the murals there. Also when Wang Xiangzhai came to Shaolin he kind of also said there’s not any boxing going on there, maybe one monk knew one or two fist of Xingyiba………About finding similarities. Before I got into the internal Chinese martial arts I was a Karate practitioner. I kan see similarities between Xingyiquan and Taijiquan forms and some traditional Karate Katas(forms), not only technique wise but also sequence wise although those forms may not at all share any common past…or maybe they do

[Trick]

is it really important which is original if works? /for fighter not historicist/
Form/s/ are build from independent, working elements stacks together.
Maybe I`m heretic , but in my opinion anybody /with the solid MA base of course /could assemble his own form, best for his personal use/preference.
We have contemporary example - 24 TJ form.

The 24 step a bad example considering who made it and why it was made.
.

Most “westerners” seem to frown at the 24. Although it’s not comparable with what one can get out of the “traditional” 85/108 and their likes, I at least(and many in China) think the 24 has some qualities. Fu Zhongwen and Chu Guiting where two of the creators of the 24, don’t they’ll me they where forced almost by gunpoint to create it

[wayne hansen]

24 is good to do in factories between the rows of machinery as it was designed
The silly golden cock snake creeps down section is a disaster
It is more like a basic karate form in its stepping pattern
I taught it back in the 70's but it really goes nowhere

[wiesiek]

I gave 24 example as the contemporary invention,
I`m quite aware that it was a health oriented compilation.

[zrm]

Most “westerners” seem to frown at the 24. Although it’s not comparable with what one can get out of the “traditional” 85/108 and their likes, I at least(and many in China) think the 24 has some qualities. Fu Zhongwen and Chu Guiting where two of the creators of the 24, don’t they’ll me they where forced almost by gunpoint to create it

I thought Li Tian Ji created the 24?

https://wenshuchan-online.weebly.com/ma ... iquan.html

For what its worth, I don't mind it. A good introductory form.

[Trick]

The silly golden cock snake creeps down section is a disaster

Actually I’ve seen that version here in china(handan area) in what’s supposed to be a Yang Banhou form

[Trick]

Most “westerners” seem to frown at the 24. Although it’s not comparable with what one can get out of the “traditional” 85/108 and their likes, I at least(and many in China) think the 24 has some qualities. Fu Zhongwen and Chu Guiting where two of the creators of the 24, don’t they’ll me they where forced almost by gunpoint to create it

I thought Li Tian Ji created the 24?

https://wenshuchan-online.weebly.com/ma ... iquan.html

For what its worth, I don't mind it. A good introductory form.

You could be right - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24-form_tai_chi_chuan

[windwalker]

The silly golden cock snake creeps down section is a disaster

Actually I’ve seen that version here in china(handan area) in what’s supposed to be a Yang Banhou form

I hope my comment on it was not misunderstood.
The "bad example" was a comment on the example used not the form


The 24 step like any other form is a tool. In this case the tool as I understood it was made so that there could be a standard way of judging a person proficiency with out the stylistic variances of other taiji styles.

Interesting my teacher's group practices in Haidian District.
His version follows the standard format done according to his method which is said to be based on the yan banhou line.
He appended it as a beginning to what they call the old 6 roads or the 88 step...The way he plays the from is quite different from
most yang stylist that I've seen.

I regard any "from" as just a training tool. One that can be either simple or complex depending on level in which its played.
Created my own "from" called "round one" a synthesis of taiji and hop gar to help those I work with in understanding stepping, transitions,
strategies ect of the work I practice with now.

[Ron Panunto]

I like the 24 Form - it's well balanced with many postures being done on both sides.