Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

[Trick]

about ZMQ had an assignment to take care of challengers wanted to have a go with YCF, i think is nothing special that set him out from any other of YCF's students. All students had the obligation to take care of their teacher, just because they where students. As i have understood and from what can be read in the thread Zhang Qinlin, Fu Zhongwen and Li Yaxuan where probably the ones that stepped up first of needed

[Bao]

about ZMQ had an assignment to take care of challengers wanted to have a go with YCF, i think is nothing special that set him out from any other of YCF's students. All students had the obligation to take care of their teacher, just because they where students. As i have understood and from what can be read in the thread Zhang Qinlin, Fu Zhongwen and Li Yaxuan where probably the ones that stepped up first of needed

Interesting you mention that... CMC (ZMQ) was weak and ill, couching up blood when he practiced, so he would probably not be the first one to carry out that task. Zhang Qinlin didn't like CMC and thought that he had became cocky and arrogant for nothing. Apparently he told CMC that he was rather number 100 than no 1. (Meaning that CMC was at the very bottom of the list)

CMC himself also let his students take his challenges. I remember that Patrick Kelly wrote something about that when in Taiwan, CMC demanded Huang to take a rooftop challenge for him in. This approach might have been the cause of several students as T.T. Liang to leave CMC. Liang usually took on challengers very gentle as he didn't like to hurt people. According the story, Liang took on Huang when he challenged CMC, and Huang later wrote to him repeatedly, thanking him for saving his life by handling him so gently.

[Trick]

i find it interesting how ZMQ, Da liu and their seniors Li Yaxuan and possible Zhang Qinlin all seem to have resided to a lesser or extended period of time in Sichuan province and possible around same location

They and many others moved south to Siquan and further down to Yunnan in 1937 after the Japanese invasion and Nanjing. As it was more likely that the Japanese would go north and for Beijing, moving down to the south was the logical choice. Many stayed in Chengdu as it was a highly populated city with possibilities for finding jobs.

yes i know they relocated because of the Japanese . Just thougt the YCF's takji maybe took a on a slightly different flavour there in sichuan, as we havenoticed in ZMQ's and Da Liu' yang taiji, pictures of Li Yaxuan's form look as "usual" yang taiji but when seing it performed by his students theres a slight different flavour and the form also slightly differnt sequence wise among his students .........Maybe its an suprising effect of eating Sichuan Spicy that sung up the form

[robert]

about ZMQ had an assignment to take care of challengers wanted to have a go with YCF, i think is nothing special that set him out from any other of YCF's students. All students had the obligation to take care of their teacher, just because they where students. As i have understood and from what can be read in the thread Zhang Qinlin, Fu Zhongwen and Li Yaxuan where probably the ones that stepped up first of needed

I don't have references at hand, but I remember reading that Fu Zhongwen and Dong Yingjie often took care of challenges for YCF.

[taiwandeutscher]

As I have trained many years with 2 of ZMQ's indoors (Song Zhijian in Taibei, Ju Hongbin in Gaoxiong), I also wouldn't have anything bad to say about this lineage, except that it has turned more into a huge social health orientated association, with a little PHs here and there, but not much real martial work (exceptions do exist).

Concerning ZMQ's "untouchability" in TW, I have reported before, that in 2 other Yang TJQ lineages of modern TW, there are different stories on ZMQ, told to me by indoor students of Wang Zihe and Xiong Yanghe. Both of them, so the stories, did handle ZMQ in confrontations with ease, the former pushing ZMQ into the gutter, the later defeating ZMQ with one hand.

In other styles, like Yin style Baguazhang or even some external arts, older generation teachers have not much positive to say on ZMQ, but that might also be a question of their own standing in society.

[origami_itto]

Nobody's invincible. My only claim was that he was could fight.

[edededed]

I think in general, all the students of a CMA teacher could have a go at challengers - since their losing wasn't much of a loss of face. The teacher only had to go if there was noone left

[Trick]

about ZMQ had an assignment to take care of challengers wanted to have a go with YCF, i think is nothing special that set him out from any other of YCF's students. All students had the obligation to take care of their teacher, just because they where students. As i have understood and from what can be read in the thread Zhang Qinlin, Fu Zhongwen and Li Yaxuan where probably the ones that stepped up first of needed

I don't have references at hand, but I remember reading that Fu Zhongwen and Dong Yingjie often took care of challenges for YCF.

they had frozty thoughts about ZMQ, could be because of him being unfairly? "promoted", either by himself or by his students, probably both ways

[wayne hansen]

So many stories above so mixed up I don't know how to address them
People should only report on what they have seen
I won't further add to the confusion

[salcanzonieri]

This is a great interview that says it all -
An interview from China Wushu Magazine from the mid seventies with Chang Yiu-Chun a student of Yang Shou-Hou.
Scroll down the page and you will find it, it says everything there is to say.

http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/23/1936.html?1103663662

[everything]

really good thanks

[wayne hansen]

All he says might be right or it could just be the old we were tougher in my day
The things he said about San shou for instance is exactly as we were taught

[salcanzonieri]

I am looking at different things in that interview.

For one, again the older generations state that they studied something else first, as a base, in this case, another Shaolin type of long fist, Tiger Boxing:
Q. But surely, many people must build up the body first of all before fighting and isn't this where the slower forms come in?

A. What people today do not realize is that back then when I was learning and it was still relatively unheard of even in China with only the main families like the Chen, the Wu and the Yang keeping it to themselves. It was only after Tai Chi became good for the health that many people started to learn. Most of us were already good at other styles of fighting. I knew Tiger Boxing and because of this and having to work very hard I and many others were already robust so we did not have to do the slow Tai Chi Chuan and even if we were not robust, there was no slow Tai Chi Chuan anyway!

Two, everyone (?) on this site now seems to be focused on comparing Chinese Internal martial arts to MMA kind of gladiator fighting, which is a different thing entirely than self defense. Internal martial martial, which I will include real Shaolin, not modern fake performance Shaolin) is, as I have repeatedly said in my posts, bull fighting, you don't fight a bull hand to hand, you let the bull defeat itself. As it said in the interview:
Q. How good then is the original Yeung style of T'ai chi ch'uan?
A. ... it is the best.
Q. Why and how is it used for self defense.
A. We use T'ai chi ch'uan in two ways. The first I can tell you about because many people know this way today. This way we take the movements and use them for self defence. we move out of the way of an oncoming force and give our own attack as he passes. we lock his bones, we break his legs and arms. This is the first level of T'ai chi ch'uan self defence. The second way is too sinister and evil for me to talk about.

A. Well, there was one time when this person came to the school but he was different and did not seem to show off like some of the others. He would look in and we would stop, he would go away, then he would appear again and we would stop. This went on for some time until I was asked to go out and invite him inside.This chap was called Chiang and he was apparently good at Pa Kua Chang. I did not fight him but one of the other students did and the fight lasted quite a long time with no-one winning. In the end Yang stopped the fight and congratulated the young man and then invited him to attack. This seemed to be getting serious but in the end the young man just stood there waiting. Yang stood there waiting. Then they bowed and he left.
Q. Why did they do that?
A. Yang and Chiang knew that they both knew something. There are no attacks in Tai Chi Chuan or Pa-Kua Chang. It may look like we are attacking but we only ever attack after we have been attacked so Chiang did not attack and neither did Yang and so there was no fight. We were all disappointed but learnt a good lesson.

and

A. I do not know about what they do in the West. But what they do in China is a modified form of T'ai chi ch'uan invented by Yeung Shou-hu's younger brother Yeung Cheng-po (Yang Cheng Fu). This style is Yeung Cheng-po's own invention so that many older and sick people can do T'ai chi ch'uan.
Q. What you are telling me is that there are actually two different types of Yeung style?
A. Yes, the one that was founded by Yeung Lu-sum (Yang Lu Chan) is not like the Yeung Cheng-po type.
Q. What are the differences?
A. When my teacher used to do his T'ai chi ch'uan, we would often say that he was like a canon shot one second and like the great river in the next second. He was very energetic. The Yeung Cheng-po style is all soft and flowing with no canon shots.

I think these are pertinent points, from the original start of the thread.

[Trick]

i dont know to make of that interview!? before they(yangs) did some moves quick and crisp, and some moves slower and flowing(and yet he seem not to understand YCF's slower smothier form?) And in pre YCF taijiquan there where more sparring, from prearrange to free sparring. And if you really had to fight you had to be ruthless ......I dont know, maybe this info is mindblowing to some.

[Bao]

i dont know to make of that interview!? before they(yangs) did some moves quick and crisp, and some moves slower and flowing(and yet he seem not to understand YCF's slower smothier form?) And in pre YCF taijiquan there where more sparring, from prearrange to free sparring. And if you really had to fight you had to be ruthless ......I dont know, maybe this info is mindblowing to some.

Have you come to any conclusion yet?