Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby Steve James on Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:09 pm

YLC studied with the Chen's for 18 years; I don't think he had to rely on any other martial art to be effective.


We can't possibly know, but it wasn't a matter of being effective. Anything YLC studied prior to learning Chen style was effective. Which cma was not effective? And, there's no evidence to suggest that Chen style was any better than any other martial art around. It was YLC who became famous. His accomplishments were based on his individual abilities and development which were a consequence of his life. Sure, we could say that it was because he learned Chen style, but we can't know if he would have been considered just as "invincible" if he'd studied another system.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:44 pm

Well the only reason he sought out the Chens to learn from is how impressively one of them dealt with a group of bandits trying to rob the pharmacy he worked at, so there's that.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:03 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:My Wu style teacher did a yang ban Hao form but only showed it for demonstrations
I never learned it but saw it on many occasions
It was supposedly the form that the Wu style was developed from it was passed down through the Cheng wing Kwong lineage
I don't think the Funei is very different to the other major lineages


The Funei 10 sets that they do that all the other lineages never do. Those set are indeed very different.


I know there are 10 sets but I can still see the same things I can see in the yang ,Wu ,sun and fu systems
CMC got rid of most of the yang system and changed how he performed it but the essence still remains
I still wish to see you do tai chi before I can take what you say seriously
I certainally don't see it in your Shaolin
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby Steve James on Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:07 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Well the only reason he sought out the Chens to learn from is how impressively one of them dealt with a group of bandits trying to rob the pharmacy he worked at, so there's that.


I've never heard that story. I have heard that he was sold into servitude because his family was poor. Another story is that he secretly watched Chens practice. There are others. The Chens must have seen something in him to teach him the family art. Are there stories about the Chens teaching other outsiders?
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:39 pm

Steve James wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Well the only reason he sought out the Chens to learn from is how impressively one of them dealt with a group of bandits trying to rob the pharmacy he worked at, so there's that.


I've never heard that story. I have heard that he was sold into servitude because his family was poor. Another story is that he secretly watched Chens practice. There are others. The Chens must have seen something in him to teach him the family art. Are there stories about the Chens teaching other outsiders?


I mean, that version is right there on wikipedia, even. Though I've also read it in various books.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Luchan

Yang Lu-ch'an’s family was a poor farming/worker class from Hebei Province, Guangping Prefecture, Yongnian County. Yang would follow his father in planting the fields and, as a teenager, held temporary jobs. One period of temporary work was spent doing odd jobs at the Tai He Tang Chinese pharmacy located in the west part of Yongnian City, opened by Chen De Hu of the Chen Village in Henan Province, Huaiqing Prefecture, Wenxian County. As a child, Yang liked martial arts and studied Changquan, gaining a certain level of skill.

One day Yang reportedly witnessed one of the partners of the pharmacy utilizing a style of martial art that he had never before seen to easily subdue a group of would-be thieves. Because of this, Yang requested to study with the pharmacy's owner, Chen De Hu. Chen referred Yang to the Chen Village to seek out his own teacher—the 14th generation of the Chen Family, Ch'en Chang-hsing.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby Steve James on Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:59 pm

One day Yang reportedly witnessed


It's a story. The wiki entry according to Wiki "reads more like a story than an encyclopedia entry." The paragraph the follows the one you posted says that Yang secretly learned. If he went to learn, but wasn't being taught, then maybe he wasn't brought there to learn.

One night, he was awakened by the sounds of "Hen" (哼) and "Ha" (哈) in the distance. He got up and traced the sound to an old building. Peeking through the broken wall, he saw his master Chen, Chang-xing teaching the techniques of grasp, control, and emitting jin in coordination with the sounds "Hen" and "Ha." He was amazed by the techniques and from that time on, unknown to master Chen, he continued to watch this secret practice session every night. He would then return to his room to ponder and study. Because of this, his martial ability advanced rapidly. One day, Chen ordered him to spar with the other disciples. To his surprise, none of the other students could defeat him. Chen realized that Yang had great potential and after that taught him the secrets sincerely.[3][4][better source needed]


Even there, it's noted that it's just a story not based on any record. Now, I'm not doubting any particular version. I think the reasons YLC went to Chen village and was taught are not particularly relevant to the skills he attained. It doesn't matter where or how he became interested in learning.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:04 pm

Steve James wrote:
One day Yang reportedly witnessed


It's a story. The wiki entry according to Wiki "reads more like a story than an encyclopedia entry." The paragraph the follows the one you posted says that Yang secretly learned. If he went to learn, but wasn't being taught, then maybe he wasn't brought there to learn.

One night, he was awakened by the sounds of "Hen" (哼) and "Ha" (哈) in the distance. He got up and traced the sound to an old building. Peeking through the broken wall, he saw his master Chen, Chang-xing teaching the techniques of grasp, control, and emitting jin in coordination with the sounds "Hen" and "Ha." He was amazed by the techniques and from that time on, unknown to master Chen, he continued to watch this secret practice session every night. He would then return to his room to ponder and study. Because of this, his martial ability advanced rapidly. One day, Chen ordered him to spar with the other disciples. To his surprise, none of the other students could defeat him. Chen realized that Yang had great potential and after that taught him the secrets sincerely.[3][4][better source needed]


Even there, it's noted that it's just a story not based on any record. Now, I'm not doubting any particular version. I think the reasons YLC went to Chen village and was taught are not particularly relevant to the skills he attained. It doesn't matter where or how he became interested in learning.


It's relevant to the claim that the Chens of the time were or were not any good at fighting. There is no hard information about YLC honestly before 1850 when he went to Beijing. You can't even get a definite answer about how much time he spent in Chen village.

I mean, hell, you can't even get an accurate answer about when he died if you asked Yang Cheng Fu, lol.

There's also not much information to support whether or not the modern art of the village in any way resembles what he may have learned.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby Steve James on Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:22 pm

It's relevant to the claim that the Chens of the time were or were not any good at fighting.


Professional martial artists were all good then. It may be that YLC saw the Chens stop a robbery. It could just as easily been Shaolin practitioners, or even monks. I think it's a bit romantic to argue that he chose Chen because of an incident. Now, if they managed to do it in a taichi "4oz v 1,000 lbs) way, maybe even using kong jin, then (for me) there'd be a clear reason why he chose to seek them out for training. And, what did he plan to do with the training anyway? Become a caravan guard? Why didn't others go to Beijing?

I've heard people complain that YLC profited off the Chen name without giving them credit. Maybe he left for the same reason that many students set out on their own. Yep, there are loads of things that we can probably never know. The Chen and Yang versions may never agree on the details except that YLC learned the Chen family art and left.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:32 pm

oragami_itto wrote:That's a compelling theory, but Yang Luchan's sons never learned anything but taijiquan (though the exact nature of the training is lost to the ages, apparently it was severe enough to drive them to runaway or suicide), neither did Cheng Man Ching, and he's known to have learned post Yang Cheng Fu's "softening".

I'd say in my experience you can learn just taijiquan and do it correctly, standing, individual postures, forms, partner work, weapons and be able to defend yourself just fine. Just takes time and lots of boring, grueling work.


You are right. However, I believe the kind of Taiji that Yang Luchan's sons learned from their father is most likely a far cry from the typical Yang style we see today, but rather included hard and fast elements that resemble typical Northern Shaolin and its basic training. It's largely lost in Yang Chengfu styles, but still quite evident in some of the forms passed down from Yang Banhou's lineages.



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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:56 pm

C.J.W. wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:That's a compelling theory, but Yang Luchan's sons never learned anything but taijiquan (though the exact nature of the training is lost to the ages, apparently it was severe enough to drive them to runaway or suicide), neither did Cheng Man Ching, and he's known to have learned post Yang Cheng Fu's "softening".

I'd say in my experience you can learn just taijiquan and do it correctly, standing, individual postures, forms, partner work, weapons and be able to defend yourself just fine. Just takes time and lots of boring, grueling work.


You are right. However, I believe the kind of Taiji that Yang Luchan's sons learned from their father is most likely a far cry from the typical Yang style we see today, but rather included hard and fast elements that resemble typical Northern Shaolin and its basic training. It's largely lost in Yang Chengfu styles, but still quite evident in some of the forms passed down from Yang Banhou's lineages.


We know the main form evolved, no need to rehash the details once again, but again I have to mention Cheng Man Ching. He was known to be a highly effective fighter. He didn't learn another art first. He didn't start at birth with an overbearing father hell bent on expanding and extending the family legacy. He just did what Yeng Cheng Fu told him to for a while, then shortened it up. Cheng Fu of course having modified his father's medium form and studied with Shao Hou for a time.

As far as I know CMC didn't even get all the weapons, just the straight sword. The saber is where most of the "ferocity" of the system lives, and the heart of the art is supposedly in the spear. He even said himself he lacked a full transmission and rated himself a 7 of 9 on his system of levels, attributing an 8 to his teacher YCF.

Whatever flaws may exist in people's personal practice today, it's not the fault of the art or style, it's the fault of the students not training it sincerely and diligently. Either out of laziness, an inability to eat bitter, being satisfied with surface results, or out of lack of faith in the art, looking for shortcuts based on their incomplete understanding or experience with other methods.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby windwalker on Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:08 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:That's a compelling theory, but Yang Luchan's sons never learned anything but taijiquan (though the exact nature of the training is lost to the ages, apparently it was severe enough to drive them to runaway or suicide), neither did Cheng Man Ching, and he's known to have learned post Yang Cheng Fu's "softening".

I'd say in my experience you can learn just taijiquan and do it correctly, standing, individual postures, forms, partner work, weapons and be able to defend yourself just fine. Just takes time and lots of boring, grueling work.


You are right. However, I believe the kind of Taiji that Yang Luchan's sons learned from their father is most likely a far cry from the typical Yang style we see today, but rather included hard and fast elements that resemble typical Northern Shaolin and its basic training. It's largely lost in Yang Chengfu styles, but still quite evident in some of the forms passed down from Yang Banhou's lineages.


We know the main form evolved, no need to rehash the details once again, but again I have to mention Cheng Man Ching. He was known to be a highly effective fighter. He didn't learn another art first. He didn't start at birth with an overbearing father hell bent on expanding and extending the family legacy. He just did what Yeng Cheng Fu told him to for a while, then shortened it up. Cheng Fu of course having modified his father's medium form and studied with Shao Hou for a time. Might want to check on some of the people he studied with and who influenced him. There are many reasons to list a famous teacher as ones teacher with out necessarily being the main example of the style. The what and why he changed things was quite significant.

http://www.taichiandqigong.com/yang_compare.php

ImageImageImage

As far as I know CMC didn't even get all the weapons, just the straight sword. The saber is where most of the "ferocity" of the system lives, and the heart of the art is supposedly in the spear. He even said himself he lacked a full transmission and rated himself a 7 of 9 on his system of levels, attributing an 8 to his teacher YCF.

Whatever flaws may exist in people's personal practice today, it's not the fault of the art or style, it's the fault of the students not training it sincerely and diligently. Either out of laziness, an inability to eat bitter, being satisfied with surface results, or out of lack of faith in the art, looking for shortcuts based on their incomplete understanding or experience with other methods.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby everything on Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:18 pm

I don't know about "fighting". I wonder if push hands has died out. There was an argument that goes something like this:

- you can't even push me (100% true), how/why fight, which is even more difficult?

I think there is a lot of truth to it, having experienced it quite like that. If we did a judo match or bjj or some other grappling, and I couldn't even PUSH you, let alone throw you, whereas you could take my balance at any point and therefore do anything else so easily, how could I possibly beat you even in grappling, let alone striking? I think we've all had this experience in grappling, I don't know about push hands, if a grappler were much, much, much better. But in pushing hands, it's more that one contact point and one push makes you feel this, which is already incomprehensibly weird to even describe. More sublime than the usual stuff. All the stories of the IMA masters are like: so and so bumped into him and fell down. So and so had a friendly push hands and immediately felt the above.

All of this makes sense given a certain context, but I don't ever see a striking demonstration, so what about the old striker vs. grappler debate? We don't see in striking-included sports anyone instantly remove the other person's balance again and again under "free fighting". For a little while, Machida would use the same knockdowns again and again, until people figured that out. We hear very little about an "internal" version of this kind of thing, even here. It's pretty hard to say what happened back in the day, or what people did or thought they did experience. It doesn't seem like people give very good descriptions, even.

If every "test" started with right wrist contacting right wrist, maybe it's easier to understand.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:37 pm

Most of the people that came to challenge taijiquan Masters weren't there to play push hands. That was and is simply a training method, part of the process, not the end goal.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:41 pm

windwalker wrote:Might want to check on some of the people he studied with and who influenced him. There are many reasons to list a famous teacher as ones teacher with out necessarily being the main example of the style. The what and why he changed things was quite significant.


Why might or might not, a person, or not a person say or not say what or whether they mean or don't mean and why or why not something or anything is or is not to be implied or intimated or said, unsaid perhaps to then of course if didn't even go so far as have ever then.

By which I mean, of course he studied push hands with Chang Ching Ling.
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Re: Thoughts about Chen - Yang TJQ and so on

Postby everything on Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:55 pm

What was a test like and how do we know?

No one even knows what Bruce Lee's fight with Wong Jack Man was like, and it's been reported on widely.

When Royce beat everyone, it's clear.

With his grand teacher Maeda, or with Wang Xiangzhai (for example), it doesn't seem so clear.

It's not that I don't believe the stories or the underlying point.
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