"Live" forms and "internal"

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Bao on Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:25 am

windwalker wrote:
Bao wrote: Solo practice is more or less just something you do because you can't always have a partner to work together with. IMHO.


Would not agree.

Historically solo practice has been the way.

It takes a lot of time working to build and develop the body/mind required to move in a certain way
with clear demonstrably skill sets that can not be gained by any other way.

Solo practice is the fondation, intended usage which some maybe refering to, is the test of whether ones practice accords
to what ever is being developed.


Don’t disagree. Solo practice is crucial for developing root, whole body connection, Dantian awareness etc. etc.

But if you don’t understand timing, distance and how another body behaves while moving, you’ll find yourself with a wrong appreciation of solo practice as this here:

everything wrote:things like catching punches out of thin air that morph into wrist lock throws is mostly considered "dead" so forms based on such bad assumptions might be deemed dead.


Forms are not based on such assumptions. People have such assumptions on forms because they don’t understand how a wrist lock can be applied in real combat. They don’t understand the strategy and set-up of the art, the basic strategy and combat methods that the movements in the forms is based upon. If you understand how to apply things for real (I.e. not by catching a fast jab etc), no form will be “dead” or artificial.

....

... Everyone agree with that an art as Tai Chi is a close-in fighting art. Yet everyone who try to learn how to use this art for real, even those who agree on this assumption that Tai Chi is a close-in fighting art, try to use it at a kicking and punching distance in a point chasing sparring situation. I don’t get it. I am not against using Tai Chi in sparring or in competitions, but the way people try to use Tai Chi in sparring and competing is mostly in a way that this art was not designed for. If it’s a close-in fighting art, treat it as such. Get in close and stay close.

Why do everyone jump around like kick-boxers? In Tai Chi we don’t want to keep distance, we are not afraid of contact. We want contact, we want to get close, keep close, stick and stick close. There are people recording and publishing their sparring sessions and try to convince themselves and the viewers that what they do is Tai Chi. It isn’t. :-\
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7166
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Trick on Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:26 am

windwalker wrote:
Bao wrote: Solo practice is more or less just something you do because you can't always have a partner to work together with. IMHO.



Would not agree.

Historically solo practice has been the way.

It takes a lot of time working to build and develop the body/mind required to move in a certain way
with clear demonstrably skill sets that can not be gained by any other way.

Solo practice is the fondation, intended usage which some maybe refering to, is the test of whether ones practice accords
to what ever is being developed.

Have to agree with WW. And I’m surprised Bao wrote what he wrote. For quite many years now my practice mainly contain solo practice, those few times I have touched hands with someone(push hands) that has engaged in far more push hands practice than I I’m doing fine till very good almost great 8-) 8-)
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2691
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Bao on Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:28 am

Trick wrote:Have to agree with WW. And I’m surprised Bao wrote what he wrote. For quite many years now my practice mainly contain solo practice, those few times I have touched hands with someone(push hands) that has engaged in far more push hands practice than I I’m doing fine till very good almost great 8-) 8-)


Look at my answer above. ;)

It’s about two different things. Now the subject was about keeping things “live”. I agree with WW. But without per year work, the solo practice is useless for practical application.

But partner practice should also maintain the integrity of the principles used in solo practice. Partner practice should focus on the same things and not be isolated from the basic principles and foundations. This is also what many do wrong. They don’t know how to incorporate the solo practice foundations in partner work.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7166
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Trick on Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:33 am

I’m satisfied with that :)
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2691
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby wiesiek on Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:00 am

For me >long form< was always something supplementary for the MA training,
so
I was shocked when heard, that by doing the form only, you may became versed in fighting...
but
I`m kinda of outsider for inner TJ circle, :)
Last edited by wiesiek on Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joyful Fruits of the Live
wiesiek
Wuji
 
Posts: 3946
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:38 am
Location: krakow

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Giles on Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:01 am

Trick wrote:I’m satisfied with that :)


Me too.

[jumps back into box and pulls lid closed]
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Trip on Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:20 am

everything wrote: things like catching punches out of thin air that morph into wrist lock throws is mostly considered "dead" so forms based on such bad assumptions might be deemed dead. why continue those. might vary for different people.


Catching punches is not dead. it's still done in live pro fights to this very day.
It's part of Mayweather's defense system.

You just seem to be exaggerating it, making it seem out of place.
If you stop turning it into something impossible,
you'll see it's just a simple defense term like parry, block, cover, dodge, etc.

I've rarely done a good job of describing it without video.
So, Google it. You'll find some basics on the web.

And BTW, once you get the knack of it
You can catch a punch with different parts of the body.
Kinda like the body can become a hand.
Trip
Wuji
 
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:40 pm

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:46 am

Trip wrote:
everything wrote: things like catching punches out of thin air that morph into wrist lock throws is mostly considered "dead" so forms based on such bad assumptions might be deemed dead. why continue those. might vary for different people.


Catching punches is not dead. it's still done in live pro fights to this very day.
It's part of Mayweather's defense system.

You left out part of everything's sentence, "catching punches out of thin air that morph into wrist lock throws . . . " That's not "part of Mayweather's defense system."

Trip wrote:You just seem to be exaggerating it, making it seem out of place.

everything seems not to be "exaggerating it," but observing what, at times, has been demonstrated.

Trip wrote:If you stop turning it into something impossible,
you'll see it's just a simple defense term like parry, block, cover, dodge, etc.

I've rarely done a good job of describing it without video.
So, Google it. You'll find some basics on the web.

And BTW, once you get the knack of it
You can catch a punch with different parts of the body.
Kinda like the body can become a hand.

Right. But again, that's not what everything was talking about. If you have a video of someone live "catching punches out of thin air that morph into wrist lock throws," please post it.

Catching a punch @ :57 to 1:33:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBrmLgaNzaY
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1913
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby windwalker on Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:58 am

:-\
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:46 am, edited 5 times in total.
基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7664
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Steve James on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:25 am

Imo, it's not the "catch" part that people doubt, it's the "stick, adhere, connect, follow" stuff that is hard to see. The boxer's "catch" isn't really a tcc tactic. I.e., one would definitely avoid trying to stop a fist directly. But, if you're boxing, and the other guy is pawing or just "flicking" his jab, it certainly works and is used all the time. Parrying and deflection are integral parts of tcc striking. Ban lan chui is the obvious example, but they're there is Grasp Birds Tail.

It's too dangerous to generalize because there are too many variables. Let's say that it might be possible to grab a punch thrown by a drunk and wrap his arm behind his back. Sure, it's just not the same as saying it's possible to do on a sober, angry Mike Tyson or Manny Pacquiao. In reality, though, the former is much more likely to occur than the latter. So, ya might just be good to go. ;)
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 18595
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:30 am

marvin8 wrote: If you have a video of someone live "catching punches out of thin air that morph into wrist lock throws," please post it.


It seems to me that if you're not wearing gloves "catching" a punch on the flat of your hand is an incredibly stupid tactic. I mean it's okay for training, but those bones break pretty easy. Broken hands, wrists, and fingers are one of the most common Friday night injury in ERs thanks to people thinking they can street fight like boxers.

For catching a punch, I don't have a video, per se, but I have the technique.

Essentially, as I've explained before, the first step is to block the punch same side (my right to their right) forearm to forearm with palm facing you. This spoils the trajectory while not absorbing much of the energy of the punch. As it finishes, you follow and overturn your palm, cupping the forearm or making a hook hand. As they pull back, you slide down to the wrist and you've got rudimentary control. At that point you can pull them out to overextend and then attack with the other hand directly, or push their hand down to the dantien, inviting them to strike with the other side, which you can do the same thing to with your other hand, pinning the first hand with their second via your second, leaving them crossed up and you with a clear shot with a free hand.
.

EDIT: Like Steve says there are lots of variables, might not work in all cases, and other related techniques may be used instead, just giving a quick example.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1979
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby roger hao on Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:09 am

At one time - living in Boston - I studied private lessons with Jwing Ming Yang
Chin Na. He was very strict about the lessons in that we would not progress further
if previous forms had not been mastered - treatment to correct injury - studying
related organs to channels - the health of which affect a persons susceptibility to
be controlled.
He NEVER taught to catch a punch. The technique is similar to John Wang explanation
in another thread of using hook then Peng to catch the leg. he would initiate by throwing the punch and then following up on the block to go for the joint lock.
For years I attempted the technique that Origami Itto describes and I came to the conclusion that I am too slow to make it work. Opponent always escaped as I was going for a split.
roger hao
Wuji
 
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:42 pm

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby roger hao on Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:14 am

I think Bao is 100% correct.

Tai Chi and also Capoeria require that you play in tight.
If you get caught watching the movie you are dead.
roger hao
Wuji
 
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:42 pm

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:38 am

roger hao wrote: For years I attempted the technique that Origami Itto describes and I came to the conclusion that I am too slow to make it work. Opponent always escaped as I was going for a split.


The secret is only fight people slower than you. 8-) 8-) 8-)
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1979
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby everything on Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:15 am

if there were a good "punch catch" technique that could be used reliably with high success, the striker vs. grappler debate in mma would be over by now. rousey wouldn't have lost to holm. couture would never have lost to liddell. perhaps even under boxing rules mayweather wouldn't have so easily dispatched mcgregor. and so on. that's really just meant to be an example. you can't be good at everything. rousey can't be as good at boxing as holm. mayweather can't have the same style as tyson did. some stuff may as well be "dead" as far as one person goes, especially if in general, observed, large data, some things are seen to not work. if jon jones or someone talented pulls it off, that still doesn't mean everyone else can likely do it reliably.

anyway, that's just the PREMISE of my statement. the main part is to take whatever you say is "live" and "internal" that. by and large, I'd guess that is exactly what you do. so not sure why you'd want to argue about it (other than that is fun or interesting in any case).
Last edited by everything on Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5204
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests