"Live" forms and "internal"

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Steve James on Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:08 pm

You've touched a point that others have already. I.e., don't bother comparing yourself or your art to those of champion professionals in their prime. Chuck Liddell knocked out tf out when he was younger, and got knocked tf out 15 years later. But, Chuck would still probably knock out every tcc, xingyi, or bagua practitioner living today --maybe ever. Even when we talk about the accomplishments of past tcc masters, we're often talking about exceptional professionals. The guys that everyone else admired and/or wanted to emulate.

Anyway, I was going to start a thread "How to fight using tcc" just to hear some ideas. For example, the issue of distance. It's generally agreed that, of the two categories, "long strike" and "short strike," that tcc is short strike. Supposedly, those categories were also related to regions. It was said that the ground in the North was harder, so the martial artists moved around more. Whereas, in the muddy South, techniques such as kicks and jumps were less viable. Just folklore, but it's interesting that both YCF and WCC left Beijing to set up shop in Shanghai at the same time.

Well, my main point is that there are three relevant distances that can actually be reduced to two. Either the opponent is within arm's reach, or he is not. I mean, that's why people distrust the idea of "no touch" martial arts. If the argument is that close means that tcc is a grappling art, fine. But, then everybody asks why we don't see it in the ufc. And, why are there so many obvious strikes and kicks, including back fists, chops, etc., if the art is primarily for grappling? Otoh, what's wrong with close range striking? There are elbows and knees, for ex.

Um, the thing is, there's always the other guy. If he's good, he also has a plan. He's not going to let himself get hit, and he's going to want to hit, grab, or throw you. Unfortunately, most of the tcc people who compete are just low-level. That's why it doesn't look the way tcc should. They don't have role models to show them the way, so they just do the best they can in the circumstances.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:20 pm

Firstly there are no blocks in the internal arts,that is hard style thinking
There is only redirection and that allows control
It isnt jabs you try to catch it is committed strikes
You don't even try catch them they just present themselves
If chi na is not working strike
I have expierences this in training,fighting and real combat
It doesn't work for most because they skip steps and add in other fighting styles with differing methodology
Last edited by wayne hansen on Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Trip on Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:55 pm

Oh boy, Some of you guys have went into exaggeration overdrive.
It’s like you some of you are saying “I don’t know how to do so it can’t be done.”

Some of you are so far off the map, that for me to explain it and answer
all the side questions without personal physical instruction would be a huge challenge
for me to answer with a written format.

Over the years, people say on this site, many times, there’s no such thing as catching a punch.
So now, at least we’ve made some progress: it’s made some of you aware that catching a punch is a real optional defensive tactic.

The next step is how do you use it?
Find and coach and train, train, train! Train hard. For years!

The simple answer is with footwork and body movement & a small horizontal left or right motion.
The Horizontal motions is one of the basic tactics of how Yang Taiji establishes contact.
To paraphrase the classics the tactic is called something like “to attach horizontally.”
[BTW, the Tungs teach how to connect horizontally. Well...to some people]

You also have to understand you don’t have to chase a punch coming at you, let them come to you.
Meaning you don’t have to extend your arm out far to touch it.
It’s trying to touch you. And, you don’t need strength to divert a punch.

Catching a punch - :57 to 1:33:

https://youtu.be/YBrmLgaNzaY?t=57s

Look at the screen shot that’s been posted. Upper Right hand (not chasing the punch) makes contact.
If he also steps laterally right (& Forward-ish, not backwards), at the same time, while slightly nudging the punch just a little to the left.
Then step forward with the left foot and horizontally warding left & you're in.

It's just one example of many. It's not meant to answer every variable.
so, I'm not going to respond to "oh, that won't work because..."
If you don't like it, it's not for you-- so, just don't do it.

Image

For those of you who do have the “eye” you’ll notice that it is similar to the transition posture of ward off left (or right).
In fact, the “Philly defense/Clam shell” posture that Mayweather uses is a similar to the transition posture of wardoff.
Meaning the posture has been pressure tested & proves you can defend yourself from punches from that posture.
Well, if you know how to use it. And put in lots of physical practice.

For those who are interested Mayweather sr. explains "how-to" from that posture
https://youtu.be/OHaUMGjDRWA?t=28s
Another guy references Jeet Kund do and the posture here
http://www.infinitywingchun.com/blog/20 ... ady-stance

everything wrote: so not sure why you'd want to argue about it ...

Bro, I didn’t argue with you.
I made an observation and commented on your post. It’s not that deep.
Please understand I’m not demanding that you or anyone else use the tactic.
I was just pointing out that it is a tactic. Just one of many tactical options.

...

Lastly, I don’t have time to read the posts, comprehend what you’re talking about & respond to all of you.
And for those of you who "catch insults out of thin air" :)
It’s not an ego thing, I simply just don’t have time.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Trip on Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:59 pm

Just for kicks, Here's a video of a guy literally catching punch in the air.
I thought was kinda funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omkBpJ5ZCHY
Last edited by Trip on Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:18 pm

Trip wrote:For those of you who do have the “eye” you’ll notice that it is similar to the transition posture of ward off left (or right).
In fact, the “Philly defense/Clam shell” posture that Mayweather uses is a similar to the transition posture of wardoff.



Bro... now you're giving out the REAL secrets. Expect a visit from the council.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Trip on Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:29 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
Trip wrote:For those of you who do have the “eye” you’ll notice that it is similar to the transition posture of ward off left (or right).
In fact, the “Philly defense/Clam shell” posture that Mayweather uses is a similar to the transition posture of wardoff.



Bro... now you're giving out the REAL secrets. Expect a visit from the council.


Oh, "Bro", that’s funny. :)

But, luckily, the Council was done with me long ago.
Each post is just another nail to seal the door shut.

Hey, I can’t tell if you really do see it or you’re just messing with me.
If you do see, then two thumbs up!

Because being able to apply Transition moves effectively—between the end postures—are certainly one of the "REAL" keys to efficient usage.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby roger hao on Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:40 pm

Regards the street preacher vid -

That was a block not a catch. Soy boy pulled back on it.
To be clear I said I don't have good success with Origami Itto's technique
of subsequently grasping the wrist and getting a joint lock.
I can block a punch with my hand but why it looks ineffective.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Trip on Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:55 pm

Hey Roger,

Just to be clear, catching a punch is just a term.
It's the motion that's important.

Some people call it a type of block.
Some call it a misdirection.
You can catch a punch with your forearm, etc.

Don't forget, You don't have to do it.
Your style is yours :)
Last edited by Trip on Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby everything on Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:56 pm

lol that was a horrible punch, but it was indeed a great catch! the guy did it so nonchalantly, too.

I retract everything I said and now claim that is the secret form everyone should do.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:09 pm

Trip wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
Trip wrote:For those of you who do have the “eye” you’ll notice that it is similar to the transition posture of ward off left (or right).
In fact, the “Philly defense/Clam shell” posture that Mayweather uses is a similar to the transition posture of wardoff.



Bro... now you're giving out the REAL secrets. Expect a visit from the council.


Oh, "Bro", that’s funny. :)

But, luckily, the Council was done with me long ago.
Each post is just another nail to seal the door shut.

Hey, I can’t tell if you really do see it or you’re just messing with me.
If you do see, then two thumbs up!

Because being able to apply Transition moves effectively—between the end postures—are certainly one of the "REAL" keys to efficient usage.


The Philly shell is definitely part of how I internalized the transitions between the first two (or three) wardoffs.

I say or three because the form I'm studying now counts the first movement after beginning as a right wardoff that is nearly a mirror of the transition from left ward off to the beginning of grasp Sparrow's tail. Both even have a subtle shoulder stroke that works more like that deflection in the graphic you posted.

Getting back to catching punches, I was flipping through Yang Cheng Fu's "The Essence and Application of Taijiquan" and he states directly that the "Sparrow's Tail" you're grasping is the opponent's hand and arm. :o

It would seem in his opinion that the "Chief Hand" of the art is primarily concerned with catching and controlling the limbs.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby roger hao on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:27 pm

Trip -
Sorry I did not realize it was a figurative term.
Regarding Origami Itto technique - reading it again
after his last post -I understand that he is talking about Grasp the bird's tail.
I mis-read before and thought he was catching by rolling into a hook hand.
The ward off is legit - sorry Itto.
Last edited by roger hao on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby roger hao on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:32 pm

Regarding Origami Itto technique - reading it again
after his last post -I understand that he is talking about Grasp the bird's tail.
Starting with a block or ward off. So you all don't think I am getting feeble -
Yeah I can do that - in fact Grasp the bird's tail is one of those techniques
I have practiced 1000 times. I can also do the street preacher grab on a punch
like soy boy STARTED to throw and never actually threw. Blocking with my hand
yep - retaining the fist and going to joint lock - lesser return on that.
I have surprised myself a few times at having the reflex to catch a beer thrown
from the kitchen with 'hey catch this' shouted after the throw.
Last edited by roger hao on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Bao on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:54 pm

Trip wrote:Catching a punch


What you speak about here and show is deflecting with the hands, that’s something else than what was meant. What was mentioned and what I replied on was about really catching, grabbing, to hold on to the punching hand, not letting it retract and turn it into a wrist lock. Grabbing a fast retracting hand is not easy. Better to set up locks and qinna in other ways.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:05 pm

No harm no fowl! (See what I did there?)

Not to complicate things now that we've got some common understanding, but the specific "single posture" I was thinking of was single whip, but working off of like a ward off right type of bridge, (which is basically a small grasp Sparrow's tail).That same entry rolls right into a strike with the left while the rights pull against each other, if that makes any sense. Working as a bouncer I would more frequently transition it to an armbar with the right hand on the wrist and the left on the back of the shoulder kinda like play guitar, with me basically standing behind them. Any sort of offensive move on their part from that position is very loud and slow and I'd have almost absolute control to check it and redirect. It is kind of strange how many people, once you've got their wrist, try to pull away from it and just give you their back. There's more to it, obviously, but that's the broad strokes.

The second one I mentioned with the crossing and pinning first with your right to right and then left to left is actually from applications for beng Ch'uan that I learned from GM Wai Lun Choi's Xingyiquan. There were drills to develop the stickiness but it's basically the same stick, adhere, join, follow idea from taijiquan. Block/Parry, follow it back while leading to their center. It's a good second choice for someone who doesn't just give you their back. Also works well in push hands to discourage strikes when the wing Chun guys start their chi Sao bs.

It's hard to describe in text, but I think you can get the gist of it.

I'm rambling I guess but I love technical talk.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby roger hao on Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:41 am

OK - but single whip application isn't catching the punch.
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