"Live" forms and "internal"

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

"Live" forms and "internal"

Postby everything on Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:53 pm

The Shaolin and Taiji style thread had me thinking:

1. We often consider TMA dead
2, So why not take current and "live" things and make those the forms for "internal"
3. Some of the "dead" forms like comb hair or beng or fair lady plays shuttles or golden rooster stands on one leg, to name a few, don't seem particularly dead. Why not take those that work for you and just do those repeatedly just as they supposedly did before going "public" and for the masses and for health

I know we've discussed many times, but that's what your personal art probably is already, isn't it? Whether or not you reject a long sequence. You do that, whatever you think "internal" is, whatever theory you like.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:17 am

I would say that just because you don't understand something right now doesn't mean that thing is "dead".

Fair Lady weaves shuttles, for example, is a complex posture with many different applications. Particularly in taijiquan the lead arm lifts the opponents arm and/or body out of the way while the following hand delivers a strike or push. I use it all the time to break people out of their root.

Or retreat to ride tiger, I couldn't really see a useful application in that and then one day I was working with someone that consistently gives me a hard time moving him and it just manifested as a great little throw to the left rear corner.

There's a lot of gold to be mined in taijiquan, but I believe too many people have gotten partially trained and then made up the gap in knowledge with their own invention, and frankly they just aren't as good as the people that codified taijiquan. The errors get passed along as the true transmission and a couple generations later it's the gospel that Sifu says and everybody knows Sifu is infallible because he knew more than you did when you started.

If there's no means of checking whether what Sifu says is bullshit or not than it just keeps straying further and further from the true art and more towards some other thing that may or may not have merit.

So, training with sincerity and clarity is useful, sometimes with aliveness, sometimes with robotic repetition, every thing in its due time and purpose.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Bao on Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:11 am

We often consider TMA dead


We? Who?

So why not take current and "live" things and make those the forms for "internal"


Have no idea what you mean. What would be considered dead or alive and why?
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Steve James on Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:04 am

Tcc can't live or die. If so, then anyone can claim that "it" is alive or dead. Tcc is alive only because there are tcc practitioners, and it will stay living until there are no more of them.

Afa the form, I agree that the tcc form is deep and complex, but it's all based on the "simple" but infinitely mutable operation of yin and yang. The actual number of tactics and techniques one can find depends primarily on the creativity of the practitioner. Of course, one complaint is that practitioners just make up stuff because they haven't learned to apply the form. Imo, that has to be taken on a case by case basis. I think the real complaint would be that there is no connection between a form that is taught --if it's taught-- the theories and the application of them.

That's why there are many well-known teachers who don't bother much with form. They often focus on the "internal" aspects or body mechanics, or on phs competitions where little "form" is used, but that tcc theory is applied. Then, of course, there are those who just do form, and even compete in form competitions. My point is really that specialization in tcc is more common that generalization. That's not a bad thing.

Afa applying the forms, I would say that there are two categories: individual "shi" and what I'd call systems; the difference being that systems are repeated several times. They're repeated numerous times, but what distinguishes them is that they are relatively complete in themselves. It's as if one could base an entire system of fighting on them. Grasp Bird's Tail is a system, the core system. Brush Knee, Repulse Monkey, Cloud Hands are systems that could even be part of a larger system. Fair Lady's footwork and use of palms makes it very distinct, especially in that it uses the 4 corners.

I'd argue that someone could focus solely on Fair Lady and do quite well. But, I'm really trying to point out that it isn't necessary to do everything in the tcc form in order to make it fully usable. Otoh, there's also no reason to limit oneself by saying what one won't do. Jmo.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:42 am

Here's how forms get created: the boredom of old men who were fighters!

"Chen Wangting also left us a free-verse poem, which begins thus:

I sigh for years past, oh those days of battle vanquishing hordes of bandits, so many moments of risk and danger.
I was bestowed with imperial favour – meaningless.
Now I am old and weary, and I have ended up with only a copy of the Daoist Yellow Courtyard Classic as my companion.
When boredom sets in, I create boxing sets.
When busy, I plough the fields.
In my free time, I teach some students and grandkids, then I leave it to them to become dragons and tigers in their own time…”

from The Inherited Chen Family Taiji Boxing Art - Chen Ziming
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2017/08/31/taiji-boxing-according-to-chen-ziming/
Last edited by GrahamB on Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby windwalker on Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:06 am

Steve James wrote:Tcc can't live or die. If so, then anyone can claim that "it" is alive or dead. Tcc is alive only because there are tcc practitioners, and it will stay living until there are no more of them.

Afa the form, I agree that the tcc form is deep and complex, but it's all based on the "simple" but infinitely mutable operation of yin and yang. The actual number of tactics and techniques one can find depends primarily on the creativity of the practitioner. Of course, one complaint is that practitioners just make up stuff because they haven't learned to apply the form. Imo, that has to be taken on a case by case basis. I think the real complaint would be that there is no connection between a form that is taught --if it's taught-- the theories and the application of them.

That's why there are many well-known teachers who don't bother much with form. They often focus on the "internal" aspects or body mechanics, or on phs competitions where little "form" is used, but that tcc theory is applied. Then, of course, there are those who just do form, and even compete in form competitions. My point is really that specialization in tcc is more common that generalization. That's not a bad thing.

Afa applying the forms, I would say that there are two categories: individual "shi" and what I'd call systems; the difference being that systems are repeated several times. They're repeated numerous times, but what distinguishes them is that they are relatively complete in themselves. It's as if one could base an entire system of fighting on them. Grasp Bird's Tail is a system, the core system. Brush Knee, Repulse Monkey, Cloud Hands are systems that could even be part of a larger system. Fair Lady's footwork and use of palms makes it very distinct, especially in that it uses the 4 corners.

I'd argue that someone could focus solely on Fair Lady and do quite well. But, I'm really trying to point out that it isn't necessary to do everything in the tcc form in order to make it fully usable. Otoh, there's also no reason to limit oneself by saying what one won't do. Jmo.


Nice, also echos what some of the past masters
were famous for.

It wasn't so much of movements but more of the aspects they specialized in which
tended to make the same movements very different in application.


Tcc can't live or die. If so, then anyone can claim that "it" is alive or dead.
Tcc is alive only because there are tcc practitioners, and it will stay living until there are no more of them.


;)
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby everything on Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:41 pm

on the 'dead' there is a lot of chatter about TMA vs. MMA ... I assume part of this chatter is the implication that some of the forms and training methods (maybe mostly the latter, which may be inextricably tied to doing long form) are considered dead by a lot of (some) people here. if you don't agree with that premise, hmm....

anyhoo for the sake of discussion let's say you think that muay thai and bjj are your "outer forms" (instead of shaolin) that 'work' (observed in a large data set, not based on your personal opinion). well... why not make your "taijiquan" from that outer form instead of the shaolin (if you accept that additional premise for the sake of argument).
Last edited by everything on Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby TrainingDummy on Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:59 pm

everything wrote:anyhoo for the sake of discussion let's say you think that muay thai and bjj are your "outer forms" (instead of shaolin) that 'work' (observed in a large data set, not based on your personal opinion). well... why not make your "taijiquan" from that outer form instead of the shaolin (if you accept that additional premise for the sake of argument).


Gurjot Singh is doing something like this:
https://www.templeundergroundboxing.com/

Whether its "internal" is debatable, but at least his students seem to be sparring enough to be competent fighters.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby johnwang on Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:03 pm

.....
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:53 pm

I have a student in her 70s that I teach the Yang Long Form to, she learned it long ago, then spent the last 10 years learning Qigong and Neigong from me , both Taoist and Shaolin methods, she was able to really feel Qi flow through her body, etc, etc. So, I said, hey, let's do the Yang Long form moving the Qi like we do with the Qigong. And boy, the energy just surges through both of us, you can really feel it spiraling in the arms and legs and flowing from the dantien out into the organs (feels like they are being massaged) and through the various channels.
THAT is another way that you can make a dead form live again.
She said, being in her mid 70s, that when she first learned the Yang Long form, it was just dancing compared to now. Now it is all so powerful, so gets wiped after doing the form 2-3 times through. Myself, I can feel huge energy flows in and out of the dantien. For sure makes the form "alive".
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby everything on Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:15 pm

Would like to work on both the qigong and the utility in MA. But would rather work on the qigong these days.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:01 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:I have a student in her 70s that I teach the Yang Long Form to, she learned it long ago, then spent the last 10 years learning Qigong and Neigong from me , both Taoist and Shaolin methods, she was able to really feel Qi flow through her body, etc, etc. So, I said, hey, let's do the Yang Long form moving the Qi like we do with the Qigong. And boy, the energy just surges through both of us, you can really feel it spiraling in the arms and legs and flowing from the dantien out into the organs (feels like they are being massaged) and through the various channels.
THAT is another way that you can make a dead form live again.
She said, being in her mid 70s, that when she first learned the Yang Long form, it was just dancing compared to now. Now it is all so powerful, so gets wiped after doing the form 2-3 times through. Myself, I can feel huge energy flows in and out of the dantien. For sure makes the form "alive".



Would love to see you doing the form is there any film of that
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Steve James on Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:08 pm

He has plenty of videos on Youtube, fwiw.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:45 am

Some nice stuff on his site
I will have to take some time going through it
Didn't see any tai chi there though
As we are discussing that it's what I was hoping to see
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Giles on Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:04 am

Good post, Origami !

Jibengong remains the basis, every day, but when this imbues a longer form, this form also becomes a very useful "how to" tutorial and training mode.
Of course, every time you have training partners, don't waste the time by doing forms together, get in contact!
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