"Live" forms and "internal"

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:51 am

What is "the" single whip application?

I happen to have copies of Yang Jwing Ming's 1982 "Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan" and his 1999 "Taijiquan, Classical Yang Style: The Complete Form and Qigong" sitting here that I haven't yet read, so I looked it up.

Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan p44 & 46 wrote:numbers refer to pictures not included here
Figure 72A: The defender slides an opponent's punch away, fingertips touch so the attacker's hand is hooked. This form is also used to block and slide away an opponent's long weapon, such as a rod.
...
Figure 73A: After blocking, the left hand circles the punching arm and pushes it to the side.
...
Figure 74: The defender strikes the opponent's chest

I omitted details of the weight shift and waist turning
Not exactly what I'm talking about, but the key point, that the hook hand is used to intercept and control the striking hand is obvious. He considers the strike from the left hand as a separate technique here.

Taijiquan, Classical Yang Style: The Complete Form and Qigong p. 192-193 wrote:The whip-like motion of the right hand is used to lead the opponent's weapon or hand to the rear. The second half of the form is a follow-up form used for attack. Therefore, in the application you first deflect the opponent's attack with your right hand, and then immediately use your left hand to continue the deflection, if necessary, and then strike.

This is exactly the application I'm talking about.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby roger hao on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:08 am

Block right arm to right arm - your arm moving horizontally in front of you
( possibly your right arm rising )
Hook hand to forearm or wrist drawing victim across
Your left arm pressing inside victim's right arm.
Final focus pressing down into clavicle.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby roger hao on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:13 am

I use Xing Yi Monkey instead - like you describe both arms blocking
then getting beside with quick arm bar. Then there is no loose elbow.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:15 am

roger hao wrote:Block right arm to right arm - your arm moving horizontally in front of you
( possibly your right arm rising )
Hook hand to forearm or wrist drawing victim across
Your left arm pressing inside victim's right arm.
Final focus pressing down into clavicle.


So again, we're really talking about the same thing. I would just prefer to stay on the outside and strike over the right arm, possibly a brow-mopping depending on the distance.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby windwalker on Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:35 am

Trip wrote:Just for kicks, Here's a video of a guy literally catching punch in the air.
I thought was kinda funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omkBpJ5ZCHY


Kinda surprised no mantis guys chimed in.
A lot of the style is predicated on the ability to intercept incoming
movements.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M7M7rLxcYg&t=41s

Its a demo, having practice with teacher Lai and his group
whats shown many could do real time.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Steve James on Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:07 am

whats shown many could do real time.


:)

No doubt, hooking is the idea for the hooked hand. The counter-strike is something that's been discussed. Actually, it'd be interesting if people on the board disagreed with the techniques. I think it's more likely that there'd be disagreement about what is or isn't internal.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:25 pm

windwalker wrote:
Trip wrote:Just for kicks, Here's a video of a guy literally catching punch in the air.
I thought was kinda funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omkBpJ5ZCHY


Kinda surprised no mantis guys chimed in.
A lot of the style is predicated on the ability to intercept incoming
movements.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M7M7rLxcYg&t=41s

Its a demo, having practice with teacher Lai and his group
whats shown many could do real time.

"Watch the feeder, not the demonstrator." This is a good example:

Starting @ :41, the feeder throws a straight right while not retracting his punch. Lai blocks the straight right (frozen), hooks the wrist, grabs and pulls—controlling the opponent (off balancing). Does anyone have a video (demo or fight) where the receiver grabs a punch before it is retracted (pulled back), then controls the feeder?

@ 2:00, Lai shows grabbing a guard arm, which is more practical. This has been seen in fights (e.g., boxing, MMA, muay thai, etc).
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:41 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Steve James on Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:31 pm

You're right about grabbing flicking punches, and the problems with demonstrations. Otoh, though one can't expect to just punch and hold his arm out, the fact is that one is more likely to see someone throw a committed (even over-extended) punch than a tight, trained boxer. In competitions, they players are concerned about their safety. The drunk in the bar isn't, and is likely to throw a haymaker. Just because a good fighter wouldn't do it, doesn't mean it won't happen or shouldn't be prepared for.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Trip on Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:23 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Getting back to catching punches, I was flipping through Yang Cheng Fu's "The Essence and Application of Taijiquan" and he states directly that the "Sparrow's Tail" you're grasping is the opponent's hand and arm.
It would seem in his opinion that the "Chief Hand" of the art is primarily concerned with catching and controlling the limbs.

Yes. :)

oragami_itto wrote: Working as a bouncer I would more frequently transition it to an armbar with the right hand on the wrist and the left on the back of the shoulder kinda like play guitar, with me basically standing behind them. Any sort of offensive move on their part from that position is very loud and slow and I'd have almost absolute control to check it and redirect.


And if horizontal motion of Transition Ward off ("Catch" and footwork: steps)
& end ward off is executed correctly (& in rhythm)
it puts you in the end position you say above: meaning Kind of behind them. or better.

It creates a natural gap
that either (AND) Keeps their power Right hand off you (or their other hand on the other side)
& you can use your straight right to follow.
or lessens the chance of their power right
or makes it loud as you say. (Giving you more time to read)

While at the same time effecting their balance.

[Edit: Also there's a very small key motion that's involved
that's hard to describe. When time allows I'll try to
find a visual for it.]
Last edited by Trip on Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:29 pm

People do box in street fights I have met many
However when someone wants to hit you the punch is fully committed
It is not wether one recoils the punch or not it is wether they react after the initial punch
Too many students throw the punch and dead fish it
That does not mean a punch can't be caught just that it requires the right method and trained skill
There are many punches in a confrontation and the opportunity will at sometime present itself
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby roger hao on Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:05 pm

No catching is being done in Brendan's vid.
True - the average drunk has no plan after the first punch.
It seems that the discussion has come full circle to the question
of - why do you want to grab or block? Why not knock them the F
out when they raise their arm? Beng Chuan - center of mass - deflated
balloon laying on the floor. If you arm bar are you going to try to get them
to tap or are you going to break their arm?
Will they be back for you after if you don't break it?
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:33 pm

Usually an arm bar was a control hold to escort them out the door and unceremoniously dump them on their asses on the sidewalk, where they would call me a pussy. That's also where the cops hung out and where they became somebody else's problem.

I didn't swing on people because I didn't want to hurt them, I didn't want myself or my employer to get sued, and I didn't want to go to jail.

Trip understands the control hold I'm taking about. If they try anything you can run them into walls or posts or the bar or the doorjam or throw them to the ground. It's really kind of sweet and just built into the system. If they're fighting back then they are earning a couple bruises or a sprain.

The "Boyd belt" system referenced in that jujitsu over 40 video I posted is relevant here. 20 lbs of advantage is equal to one belt rank, and it's usually the big dudes that want to start shit. Training is at worst am equalizer and at best an advantage.

Fair fights are for suckers
Last edited by oragami_itto on Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:46 pm

And I figure it kind of goes without saying but I'll say it anyway, from the escort position you have free reign to throw knees into their side and back, kidneys if you like, or kicks to their knee if you want to get nasty. Or even transition to something like a rear naked choke. I never really had to go there doing security, but it can all work off the same position.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby BruceP on Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:10 pm

Form follows function

Trying to 'fight' with the form mistakes the technique for the goal
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Trip on Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:16 pm

BruceP wrote:Form follows function

Trying to 'fight' with the form mistakes the technique for the goal


Well, I'm not talking about form.
But I am using others knowledge of the form as a method of movement communication.
Last edited by Trip on Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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