"Live" forms and "internal"

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Trip on Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:20 pm

oragami_itto wrote:I didn't swing on people because I didn't want to hurt them, I didn't want myself or my employer to get sued, and I didn't want to go to jail.


putting the "straight right" in my discription
I thought it would make it easier for more people to digest & comprehend.

But your reply helped me to see I over shot the mark
and overthought it. Thus making it more complicated in written form.

Anyway, if you get the position I'm talking about
a hold is cleary there.

The left arm ends up on the outside of the upper arm or elbow
or inside, between arm and body.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:18 pm

I was replying more to Roger hao in that post.

It is hard to describe in text, I might try to get a video together if the push hands crew is down for the cause
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby everything on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:00 pm

It's easy to find gifs of Fedor removing guards, e.g.,

Image

but he is the protagonist there.

Here he almost catches a punch from Arlovski throwing it, but no, not really. And he was one of the best at using "traps". If you remember this fight, Arlovski was actually the better boxer. Til he stupidly decided to throw a flying knee right when Fedor swung his big casting punch. Threw himself into a KO.
Image

His mma book is really good. Would be a good "outer form" manual. You could then do "internal" whatever, get old and bored, make up a form, do it as a tree hugging qi gong. That is a quan I could really get into.
Last edited by everything on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:31 pm

roger hao wrote:No catching is being done in Brendan's vid.
True - the average drunk has no plan after the first punch.
It seems that the discussion has come full circle to the question
of - why do you want to grab or block? Why not knock them the F
out when they raise their arm?
Beng Chuan - center of mass - deflated
balloon laying on the floor. If you arm bar are you going to try to get them
to tap or are you going to break their arm?
Will they be back for you after if you don't break it?

That never was the "discussion/question." Most can grab, block, catch and control an arm or wrist, but not before a punch is retracted. No one has posted a video showing otherwise, yet.

everything wrote:things like catching punches out of thin air that morph into wrist lock throws is mostly considered "dead" so forms based on such bad assumptions might be deemed dead. why continue those.
marvin8 wrote:Starting @ :41, the feeder throws a straight right while not retracting his punch. Lai blocks the straight right (frozen), hooks the wrist, grabs and pulls—controlling the opponent (off balancing). Does anyone have a video (demo or fight) where the receiver grabs a punch before it is retracted (pulled back), then controls the feeder?


Regarding single whip, the demonstrators in the following two videos discuss the problem of grabbing and controlling an arm before a punch is retracted. Then, they show how it can be applied.

Starting @ 1:02:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4LATKywaCI&t=1m2s

Starting @ 4:22:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxC2ljcV8ls&t=4m22s
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby everything on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:38 pm

good god. what are those videos for. are those the dumbest people on earth.

That never was the "discussion/question." Most can grab, block and catch an arm or wrist, but not before a punch is retracted. No one has posted a video showing otherwise, yet.


yup. this. yeah. everyone can capture a limb in some context. push hands. grappling. of course those. but not in this kind of case.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby everything on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:43 pm

here's one where anderson silva almost did it. but no.

Image
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby everything on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:44 pm

here's one where conor sort of does it. not really.

Image

Machida has almost got it:
Image

almost single whip like (block from outside in, hook hand to remove limb):
kind of fist under elbow ish too. :)
Image

single whip like, but the "attack" is for some reason a left out there limb, not a punch
Image

but none of this is the unrealistic catch.
Last edited by everything on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:52 pm

everything wrote:good god. what are those videos for. are those the dumbest people on earth.

No, they are not. They are saying it is difficult, if not impossible, to grab (e.g., wrist) and control an arm (e.g., pull, off balance) before a punch is retracted.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby everything on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:56 pm

marvin8 wrote:
everything wrote:good god. what are those videos for. are those the dumbest people on earth.

No, they are not. They are saying it is difficult, if not impossible, to grab (e.g., wrist) and control an arm (e.g., pull, off balance) before a punch is retracted.


thank goodness. i didn't use audio.
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:14 pm

Single whip is the last thing I would use to try and catch a punch
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:26 am

Single whip (sort of).

Image

Image

Image
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:35 pm

Unit even sort of
Single whip is not the final posture in the books but the process of getting there
There are two chances for catching a punch in single whip
The first for a right roundhouse to the left ear on the turn from push
The second against a straight punch from either punch straight down the pipe just prior to the hand hooking
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby Steve James on Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:13 pm

Single whip is not the final posture in the books but the process of getting there


Yep. Actually, I'd argue that there are way more than two applications, with or without the footwork. :)
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:26 pm

I was just talking about catching punches as it is done in the form
No variations
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: "Live" forms and "internal"

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:22 pm

I, personally, don't experience things like "Oh he's throwing a straight right, I should use single whip to stop it. Here we go. Single whip."

There is action and reaction and after the fact I can reflect on what happened and use form movements to understand and communicate what happened with other people who speak the same jargon.

If you look at that Liang De Hua video, for example, he says that you can't catch a punch with single whip, and then he says that you can't use a particular variant of single whip to express force in both directions simultaneously due to the weight shift. However, the other variant of single whip IS appropriate to express force in opposite directions because it's 50/50 weighted in a horse stance, and demonstrates that application by grabbing his partner's arm and striking with the other hand.

So is that obvious enough?

What I mean is, the "ward off right" movement, even in an untrained person, is very similar to the natural reflex at being startled. It's already hard wired into your biology before you even start studying something like Taijiquan. Then you add in the transition that is arguably a predecessor to the highly regarded Philly Shell defense and you've really got something.

Going further, there is no requirement that you use an entire movement for a given real world application. You may only need one tiny part and then transition to another part of a completely different posture. Wu wei = The situation dictates the movement, you don't insist upon a particular course of action because no plan survives contact with the enemy.

With all that being overstated... If I say "catch a punch, then finish it like single whip" that doesn't mean catch it with single whip. Catch it with cloud hands, then transition into single whip. The kind of single whip that lets you express power in both directions. Once you've neutralized the original attack you can finish it however you like, or rather, you can finish it how the situation demands.
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