The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:11 pm

If you think Chinna requires force you haven't been taught it very well
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3908
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Yeung on Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:08 pm

I am not sure what you mean, maybe you can compare the differences in the use of forces:

Chin na Training Methods and Tools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzfaodWOE9M&t=1171s

Individual frat training kit - Tug of War

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZyBXszCdcs

Qin na is not exactly the same as grab and pull, it sort of stiffen up the wrist to produce the required force to hold on to the opponent.
Yeung
Wuji
 
Posts: 746
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:41 am

Just because there is strength training for quinna does not mean we use force in application
This is an eagle claw tape
I have trained with hapkido,aikido,akijitsu ,jui jitsu people and the trankadas of FMA
None used undue strength if one technique was not working they simply flowed into another
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3908
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Bao on Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:49 am

wayne hansen wrote:Just because there is strength training for quinna does not mean we use force in application


Agreed. Wayne is correct. If you use force/ strength, it means that you don't understand what qinna is about and should look for a better teacher.

Qinna is like cutting up a chicken. Bad qinna is like cutting straight through the bones. You'll need effort.

Good qinna is like cutting through the joints. There' no resistance, so it's effortless.

For qinna, you need to understand anatomy, angles and leverage. If you do, there will be no chance for your opponent to resist so there will be no need to use dumb strength and effort. 8-)
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7860
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby dspyrido on Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:09 pm

Bao wrote:For qinna, you need to understand anatomy, angles and leverage. If you do, there will be no chance for your opponent to resist so there will be no need to use dumb strength and effort. 8-)


You're both right but there are levels as they have different tactics.

Some qinna is as you say ... leverage of strong applied to weak areas. Favours technique, change and sensitivity. Common in the "softer" styles.

Some qinna relies on cavity pressing and joint smashing. Common in the harder styles. Hence conditioning.

All qinna benefits from training both aspects. The best qinna practitioners I've met understood tactics and application but had hands that could rip flesh from bone & conditioned bodies.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2417
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Yeung on Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:47 am

I do agree that small joint manipulation and pressure point techniques do not require a lot of forces in most cases. But if you compass hard enough you will stiffen up the wrist which becomes vulnerable for being twisted by the opponent with anti-qinna techniques. The grabbing technique in tug-on-war is a good one to guarantee quick release. It looks similar in the more traditional jacket grabbing technique in Judo or Taiji grabbing technique. “Grasp Peacock’s Tail” is a good example of grabbing and pulling but I do not think that fits the definition of Qinna in the context of Chinese Martial Arts.
Yeung
Wuji
 
Posts: 746
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby salcanzonieri on Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:16 pm

So, recently spent hours viewing videos and comparing how all the Chen Yanxi lineage practitioners and other non-Chen Fake (and Zhaopei and Zhaokui) when they do their Yi Lu, there do not have some transitional movements that are found in all Post Chen Fake.

Here's the thing, these extra movements that Chen Fake lineages do, they are all found in the older Yang TJQ sets. None of these movements are found in any Chen Yanxi and other non Chen Fake versions of the Yi Lu. They are not in the Small Frame lineages that are pre-Chen Fake as well.

So, Chen TJQ versions before Chen Fake do not have certain movements found in Yang TJQ, but Chen Fake versions do.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
salcanzonieri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 5:44 pm
Location: Florham Park, NJ

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Trip on Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:02 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:...Here's the thing, these extra movements that Chen Fake lineages do, they are all found in the older Yang TJQ sets. None of these movements are found in any Chen Yanxi and other non Chen Fake versions of the Yi Lu. They are not in the Small Frame lineages that are pre-Chen Fake as well.

So, Chen TJQ versions before Chen Fake do not have certain movements found in Yang TJQ, but Chen Fake versions do.


To see what you see
Can you make 3 comparison GIFs of those "extra transitional Movements"
found in the Chen Fake Lineage -- not found in the Yanxi and other versions
and those same transitional movements in Yang Style?
Last edited by Trip on Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trip
Wuji
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:40 pm

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:20 pm

You are going to have to wait, I wrote a big thing with lots of videos, and it timed out before I was done and lost all of it
salcanzonieri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 5:44 pm
Location: Florham Park, NJ

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:41 pm

2nd attempt:

well, first lets look at the difference between classic modern Chen (post Chen FaKe) and other pre-Chen FaKe lines, such as his father's Chen YanXi.
One thing to observe is that in the Chen Yan Xi lines, the 8th movement does not happen there, but only once, a few postures late.
It is the moves after White Crane Spreads its Wings. Modern Chen does it when the classic YCF yang style does it.
Also look at other differences, such as the Needle at Sea Bottom and subsequent postures. If you keep looking there are more details and transitions that show a difference.
For instance, the direction of the palms in the opening commencement in Chen YanXi styles is different from Chen FaKe styles, which has the palms facing like in Yang style.

Here are Chen Yan Xi descended forms of the Yi Lu:








Side by side of classic modern Chen and Classic YCF Yang style:


Chen FaKe students (8 different) all do the same 8th postures, when and where it is not done in Chen Yan Xi descended forms:


On the other hand, there are these old timers, that were before the Big Four (Chen Xiaowang, Chen Zhenglei, Zhu Tiancai and Wang Xi'an) became famous.
What does that mean? Non Chen FaKe influence? What lineages then?
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
salcanzonieri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 5:44 pm
Location: Florham Park, NJ

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Yeung on Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:06 am

There is no pre Chen Fake Chen style Taijiquan, you have to argue that Fu Zhensong did not learn Taijiquan from Chen Yanxi.
Last edited by Yeung on Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yeung
Wuji
 
Posts: 746
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby salcanzonieri on Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:13 pm

Yeung wrote:There is no pre Chen Fake Chen style Taijiquan, you have to argue that Fu Zhensong did not learn Taijiquan from Chen Yanxi.


Please elaborate.
salcanzonieri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 5:44 pm
Location: Florham Park, NJ

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby HotSoup on Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:54 pm

What does that mean?

That it’s a live tradition and like with any manifestation of human culture, small deviations/innovations here and there are natural to expect with time passing?

Really, running your analysis against a single movement’s place in a form doesn’t permit for a selection significant enough to produce a conclusion different from a statistical mistake. You need a larger selection.

The last video you posted is actually very good for analyzing, since there are tons of people from lineages different from that of CFK. Half of them are not even technically “Chen”, but Zhaobao, nevertheless it’s clear that the forms are of the same origin and it’s possible to distill the common movements and sequence from them to get a better idea how the source forms might look like before the split. Check the video’s description on youtube, there are more details there.

My personal take on it is that the old forms were way simpler. The complexity of nameless extra movements in transition really flourished with CFK and his son, Chen Zhaokui (likely because of the influences of the Beijing martial scene). By all means, Chen Yanxi’s forms must have been way simpler.
User avatar
HotSoup
Anjing
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:20 am

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby salcanzonieri on Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:10 pm

HotSoup wrote:
What does that mean?

That it’s a live tradition and like with any manifestation of human culture, small deviations/innovations here and there are natural to expect with time passing?

Really, running your analysis against a single movement’s place in a form doesn’t permit for a selection significant enough to produce a conclusion different from a statistical mistake. You need a larger selection.

The last video you posted is actually very good for analyzing, since there are tons of people from lineages different from that of CFK. Half of them are not even technically “Chen”, but Zhaobao, nevertheless it’s clear that the forms are of the same origin and it’s possible to distill the common movements and sequence from them to get a better idea how the source forms might look like before the split. Check the video’s description on youtube, there are more details there.

My personal take on it is that the old forms were way simpler. The complexity of nameless extra movements in transition really flourished with CFK and his son, Chen Zhaokui (likely because of the influences of the Beijing martial scene). By all means, Chen Yanxi’s forms must have been way simpler.


Well, yes, I agree.

(Plus, I gave one example, just one).
There are other non Chen FaKe lineages, they do seem less complex.

My, and not just me but others, conjecturing is that Che FaKe may have seen Yang CF style Yang and proceeded accordingly.
salcanzonieri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 5:44 pm
Location: Florham Park, NJ

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby HotSoup on Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:48 am

salcanzonieri wrote:My, and not just me but others, conjecturing is that Che FaKe may have seen Yang CF style Yang and proceeded accordingly.


That could be a viable theory, given the business component of CFK’s teaching in Beijing and appeal to market his offering as something people were already somewhat familiar with. The problem with this theory is that YCF’s form itself falls rather on the simpler side of the spectrum. Majority of the new transitional movement in CFK’s form cannot be found in that of YCF. I bet on CFK’s own creativity and ideas he picked up in Beijing from everything what he saw, from Xingyi to Shuajiao, including possible back-porting of ideas from Yang and Wu TJQ.

Another factor can be his remoteness from Chenjiagou. In an environment of multiple (related but competing?) lineages it is harder to make significant changes, because there are always lots of uncles and grandpas around telling you that what you’re doing is wrong, that you’re going against the ancestors’ will by making your own changes and so on. When you’re hundreds miles away in Beijing, it’s way easier to do whatever you feel fit. Technically, it can be one of the plausible explanations why the Yang and Wu styles went the way they went: people developed their practice freely without the peer pressure to mindlessly maintain all the dead load accumulated through several generations of their predecessors.
Last edited by HotSoup on Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
HotSoup
Anjing
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:20 am

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests