The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:04 am

Chen Fa Ke and Chen ZhaoPi already knew "Chen family boxing" - easy to put that into the same sequence as the rather simple Yang Cheng Fu form. Chen family boxing was probably more intricate than YCF, hence the more intricate Chen form.
I could be wrong.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Yeung on Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:37 am

salcanzonieri wrote:
Yeung wrote:There is no pre Chen Fake Chen style Taijiquan, you have to argue that Fu Zhensong did not learn Taijiquan from Chen Yanxi.


Please elaborate.


Oh, the Chen family martial is know to be Shan Xi Hong Tong Bei Quan 山西洪洞通背拳 and there are lots materials in Youtub. How Chen Yanxi transform it into Taijiquan is a bit technical but if you apply internal principles to any external martial arts, it properly workout okay except some difficult movements, like getting up from a half split for example. From my observation, most chen practitioners can't drop into a half split anyway.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Bao on Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:33 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:My, and not just me but others, conjecturing is that Che FaKe may have seen Yang CF style Yang and proceeded accordingly.


Yes. CFK probably mixed YCF's stuff with his own "Chen Fist" which was something other than Tai Chi.

HotSoup wrote:The problem with this theory is that YCF’s form itself falls rather on the simpler side of the spectrum. Majority of the new transitional movement in CFK’s form cannot be found in that of YCF. I bet on CFK’s own creativity and ideas he picked up in Beijing from everything what he saw, from Xingyi to Shuajiao, including possible back-porting of ideas from Yang and Wu TJQ.


Never saw it as Yang was missing movements. The movements found in Chen, but not in the other four big styles, have a different origin from many of the movements found in Yang and in the other four styles. They could have been added to Chen style any time, sooner or later. So because they are in Chen they must have been in Yang? There's no real logic in a statement like this. It can have many different reasons. And no one knows what Chen style looked before CFK. He could have added those movements to the Yang form. Many people, including Ma Yueliang who stated this in interviews, says that Chen style Tai Chi was gone before CFK. Even Chen Xin said that what was originally called Chen Fist was not Tai Chi.


Another factor can be his remoteness from Chenjiagou. In an environment of multiple (related but competing?) lineages it is harder to make significant changes, because there are always lots of uncles and grandpas around telling you that what you’re doing is wrong, that you’re going against the ancestors’ will by making your own changes and so on. When you’re hundreds miles away in Beijing, it’s way easier to do whatever you feel fit.


There was no Chen style left in the Chen village. Tai Chi was never a "village style". It was a family style. Some people say that YLC's teacher broke this tradition of only teaching family members because almost no one was practicing it and he didn't want the art to disappear.

I am sure that CFK's father and family were martial artists, but there's no evidence that he was taught anything similar to Tai Chi, neither Chen Tai Chi or Yang Tai Chi.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby salcanzonieri on Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:23 pm

GrahamB wrote:Chen Fa Ke and Chen ZhaoPi already knew "Chen family boxing" - easy to put that into the same sequence as the rather simple Yang Cheng Fu form. Chen family boxing was probably more intricate than YCF, hence the more intricate Chen form.


And, the Chen Yi Lu very clearly follows the same order of movements as the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan set and the Shaolin Xie Quan (slanting, as in brush knee, twist or slanting),
here is my chart of the one to one, the forms even repeat the same material at the same place in their sequences:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/images/comparison%20Chen%20TJQ%20vs%20Shaolin%20TZQ%20and%20XYQ.pdf
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby salcanzonieri on Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:26 pm

Yeung wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:
Yeung wrote:There is no pre Chen Fake Chen style Taijiquan, you have to argue that Fu Zhensong did not learn Taijiquan from Chen Yanxi.


Please elaborate.


Oh, the Chen family martial is know to be Shan Xi Hong Tong Bei Quan 山西洪洞通背拳 and there are lots materials in Youtub. How Chen Yanxi transform it into Taijiquan is a bit technical but if you apply internal principles to any external martial arts, it properly workout okay except some difficult movements, like getting up from a half split for example. From my observation, most chen practitioners can't drop into a half split anyway.


The only two sets I have ever seen where they do this sudden drop down split, are the Chen Yi Lu and the Shaolin Xie Quan, they both do it the exact same way.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby HotSoup on Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:10 am

salcanzonieri wrote:
GrahamB wrote:Chen Fa Ke and Chen ZhaoPi already knew "Chen family boxing" - easy to put that into the same sequence as the rather simple Yang Cheng Fu form. Chen family boxing was probably more intricate than YCF, hence the more intricate Chen form.


And, the Chen Yi Lu very clearly follows the same order of movements as the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan set and the Shaolin Xie Quan (slanting, as in brush knee, twist or slanting),
here is my chart of the one to one, the forms even repeat the same material at the same place in their sequences:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/images/comparison%20Chen%20TJQ%20vs%20Shaolin%20TZQ%20and%20XYQ.pdf


Well, Sal, if are you going to marry these two theories, that would imply that the Yang form is basically Shaolin Taizu, because according to the "heretics" :) this is how the Chens have got it — from Yang. Is it what you are driving at? That would be a huge hit for those still serious about "Chen is just Shaolin, but everything derived from Yang Luchan is a magically crafted pinnacle of martial arts" :D
Last edited by HotSoup on Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Bao on Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:12 am

HotSoup wrote:Well, Sal, if are you going to marry these two theories, that would imply that the Yang form is basically Shaolin Taizu, because according to the "heretics" :) this is how the Chens have got it — from Yang. Is it what you are driving at? That would be a huge hit for those still serious about "Chen is just Shaolin, but everything derived from Yang Luchan is a magically crafted pinnacle of martial arts" :D


From what I've read so far from Mr Canzonieri is that he does imply that the Yang form is basically Shaolin Taizu. (Or maybe it basically comes from a soft Shaolin art that lies very close to Taizu)

What you see in Chen that is different from Yang (both movements and they way they are done) is influenced by another Shaolin tradition. So just claiming that YLC or YCF took away kicks and jumps isn't a good enough explanation. If one of them just took away more physical demanding movements, the Yang form would still be a mix between these two traditions.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby nicklinjm on Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:57 pm

Bao, I don't think it's right to say "no-one knows what Chen style looked like pre-CFK". As we discussed on this board before, there are Chen taiji lines which don't go through Chen Fake at all.

For example, Zhu Laohu (Chen Yanxi -> Wang Yan -> Zhu Laohu), Chen Quanzhong (Chen Yanxi -> Chen Delu -> Chen Quanzhong) and Chen Shitong (Chen Bingwang -> Chen Changhui ->-> Chen Baowen -> Chen Shitong). So looking at those practitioners I would say we do have a pretty good idea of what pre-CFK Chen looked like.

Will leave it to the Chen experts as to what exactly the differences are.
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Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:10 pm

But its not so simple as to say Chen or Yang TJQ is MERELY Shaolin Quan.
It used various parts from Shaolin and makes something more refined from it.

- It takes the Peng idea from the Lifting hands specialty of Tai Zhu Chang Quan.
- It takes the basic outline of the TZ Chang Quan set, marries it with the Shaolin Xie Quan set, which in my chart shown previous above, it used both sets as the framework to hang the TJQ ideas onto.
- It uses the silk reeling ideas from Shaolin Chan Yuan Gong.
- it uses the 13 postures energies, foot patterns, techniques from Shaolin Luohan 13 Postures set (Which is said to have influenced the founder of Tong Bi Quan to turn it into Tong Bei Quan.
- It uses the soft/hard; fast/slow flowing movements of Shaolin Rou Quan.
- Its uses Shaolin Hong Quan for more techniques, Which the Chen family cousins the Li family, who are from Mogou village, which is known for their style of Shaolin Hong Quan, which is over 750 years old. Which is more of a small frame style of Hong Quan.
- it uses the staff and spear and sword material from Shaolin. ALL Shaolin sets, ALL, can be done with the staff besides empty hand. TJQ Yi Lu (Chen and Yang) can also be done with a staff instead of bare hands, easily.

Shaolin is very close to Chen Village, and super close to Mogou village.

Plus remember, that TJQ theory is nicked from Chang family martial arts.

Yang TJQ seems to have taken some postures from Chen TJQ and replaced them with the way the posture is shaped in Shaolin Hong Quan. you can especially see it in Fair Lady at the Shutles.
Yang TJQ does it nothing like how Chen TJQ does it, other than basic, but it does do it just like the moves are done in Shaolin Hong Quan.
Modern Shaolin Hong Quan is not the set they used, there is a Lao Hong Quan (Lao as in Old) that Shaolin has which is much more like TJQ but sped up.
If you slow it down you see the overlap with TJQ, especially in the moves up to Single Whip.

Regardless, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, as far as TJQ is concerned.

Another observation, TJQ does Single Whip not like the Single Whip found in Shaolin set, although it is doing it basic, but instead it is done like Taoist Hua Mt (Shanxi province) does the move in their Longevity Neigong set, which is like the second posture of Shaolin Chan Yuan (Coiling Round) Gong.
In fact, there is some similarity between Shaolin Chan Yuan Gong and Hua Mt Longevity Nei Gong.
And, who learned both: Hu Yaozhen,, Feng Zhiqiang's teacher.
And Feng's Silk Reeling is very much like Chan Yuan Gong, and vice versa.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Bob on Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:27 am

Du's Pao Chui:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U794Im1nnA



Just for a point of comparison - below is the 1st of the 3 short forms that Liu Yun-qiao put together sometime in the 1970s that was done for the developmental center in Taiwan - they were based on whatever he and Chen Fake exchanged in their 1928 meeting in Beijing but there was also some possibility that Liu had an
exchange with a xiao jia Chen master at a military academy in Xian (however, this was never really verified only hearsay) - you can compare it to his short form Yang style taijiquan based on what the General Zhang Xiang-wu taught him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA0Sk9XA-Nc

Chen 1st short form



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5eoDPBwug0

Last edited by Bob on Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Bob on Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:19 am

two other points of comparison outside the Chen Yanxi line:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3YqCNqq6-U

Chen Qingzhou



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTSxSKKRAqk

Chen Quanzhong

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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby robert on Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:38 am

I wouldn't consider Chen Qingzhou outside the Chen Yanxi line. Although CQZ learned from his father at 19 he started training with Chen Zhaopi who had studied with Chen Fake in the village.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Bob on Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:03 am

You are correct Robert but it also leads to an interesting observation:

Chen Zhaopei was a disciple of Chen Fake
Chen Zhaokui was the youngest son of Chen Fake

Substantial variation in what they learned?
Lots of variation even within a line of the Chen taijiquan lineage?
I don't know if this will ever be resolved but I see more similarities than differences but then again I am definitely not an expert on Chen Taijiquan and the lineage.

http://chenfamilytaiji.com/profile_chen_qingzhou.html

Chen Qingzhou is a 19th-generation lineage holder in Chen Family Taijiquan Gongfu and a direct descendant of the ancestral founder of Chen Village where Taijiquan originated. Born in 1934, he began training in Chen Family Old Frame under his father, Chen Wufang. He was later sent to study with the great 18th-generation master, Chen Zhaopi, disciple of Chen Fake.

In 1974, Chen Qingzhou began learning Chen Family New Frame from Chen Zhaokui, the youngest son of Chen Fake. He subsequently abandoned New Frame, asserting that Chen Family Taijiquan should be preserved and taught as it had been for hundreds of years. He therefore retained the entire Old Frame system: Old Frame First Form, Old Frame Second Form (Paochui), Taiji Single Sword, Taiji Double Sword, Taiji Single Broadsword, Spring-Autumn Broadsword, Short Staff (Wu Hu Qun Yang Gun), Three-Man Staff, Pear Blossom Spear/White Ape Staff (Li Hua Qiang Jia Bai Yuan Gun), Taiji sphere, Taiji ruler (xing gong bang), pole shaking (dou gun zi), the five push-hands techniques of Chen Village, and joint locking and grappling (na fa). The empty-hand forms contain the core principles of Chen Family Taijiquan: chan si jin (silk-reeling energy), yin jing lou kong (leading into emptiness), zhou hua (neutralization), na fa, the basic energies, etc. In addition to these skills, weapons are used specifically for building up fa jin (explosive force), ting jin (sensitivity), and improving footwork.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby robert on Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:17 pm

Bob wrote:Chen Zhaopei was a disciple of Chen Fake
Chen Zhaokui was the youngest son of Chen Fake

Substantial variation in what they learned?
Lots of variation even within a line of the Chen taijiquan lineage?
I don't know if this will ever be resolved but I see more similarities than differences but then again I am definitely not an expert on Chen Taijiquan and the lineage.

I've done both laojia and xinjia yilu. I asked Chen Bing about the difference and his reply was xinjia has more small circles. I've been going through a couple books by some of Chen Fake's students and they allude to Chen Fake having an early and late style - thus laojia and xinjia - old frame and new frame. Laojia is what he learned in the village and xinjia are the changes he made to the form while he was in Beijing. The book by Shen Jiazhen and Gu liuxin says it represents Chen Fake's later period. It lists eight characteristics of Chen style taiji. Each section lists some rules and they are old taijiquan sayings. As far as I know the principles are the same. There are some minor difference in choreography. My opinion.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Yeung on Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:39 am

The 8 principles of Shen Jiazhen are applicable to most martial techniques. It is very apparent that without following them Taijiquan forms can be performed just like Shaolin forms. The observation of the Chinese Administrators is right in a way that Taijiquan is just doing Shaolin forms slowly and softly.
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