The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby GrahamB on Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:26 am

The Heretics podcast presents the hypothesis that what Chen Yanxi taught was "Chen family Boxing" - not Taijiquan, i.e. before anybody with the surname Chen had encountered this thing called "Taijiquan" that was taught in Beijing. It's pretty easy for an experienced (and real) martial artist to learn a form and adapt it to his way of doing things, which is what happened once the Chen people encountered Taijiquan in Beijing and realised that this was an easy way to support yourself financially.

The argument takes hours to build and is presented in audio form, and is hard to address in short discussion forum posts:

https://thetaichinotebook.com/the-history-of-taijiquan/
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Yeung on Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:56 am

It really has nothing to do with the CCP, as what do policy makers know about Taijiquan and in any case the national everybody exercising program is a success. It is the administrators of the funds from the government who are responsible. As far as I concern, the Chens did not make much progress on the development on Taijiquan since the Cultural Revolution except promoting themselves. It is kind of funny for people call themselves Taijiquan practitioners promoting the use of brute force and Qinna.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:21 am

GrahamB wrote:Chen Yanxi taught was "Chen family Boxing" - not Taijiquan, i.e. before anybody with the surname Chen had encountered this thing called "Taijiquan" that was taught in Beijing. It's pretty easy for an experienced (and real) martial artist to learn a form and adapt it to his way of doing things, which is what happened once the Chen people encountered Taijiquan in Beijing and realised that this was an easy way to support yourself financially.

But the Yangs and Wu’s moved to Shanghai/Nanjing area where the big bucks and big fame could be made made . Why did not the Chen’s follow them at that point, ok, perhaps a Taiji vacuum had been left behind in Beijing when the Yangs and Wus left which the Chen’s took advantage of ?
Anyway everyone knew Shanghai and Nanjing were the hotspots of opportunities in China at the time, even the villagers in Chen village must have known that ?
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:32 am

Yeung wrote: Taijiquan practitioners promoting the use of brute force and Qinna.

But the equivalent to the art of Qinna in Japan is called Jujutsu(soft techniques), wouldn’t that be the same approach in Chinese qinna ? So why can’t that be part of TJQ?
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby GrahamB on Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:22 am

Trick wrote:
GrahamB wrote:Chen Yanxi taught was "Chen family Boxing" - not Taijiquan, i.e. before anybody with the surname Chen had encountered this thing called "Taijiquan" that was taught in Beijing. It's pretty easy for an experienced (and real) martial artist to learn a form and adapt it to his way of doing things, which is what happened once the Chen people encountered Taijiquan in Beijing and realised that this was an easy way to support yourself financially.

But the Yangs and Wu’s moved to Shanghai/Nanjing area where the big bucks and big fame could be made made . Why did not the Chen’s follow them at that point, ok, perhaps a Taiji vacuum had been left behind in Beijing when the Yangs and Wus left which the Chen’s took advantage of ?
Anyway everyone knew Shanghai and Nanjing were the hotspots of opportunities in China at the time, even the villagers in Chen village must have known that ?


What years are you talking about? The Chens arrived late to the Tai Chi party. Chen Zhaopi didn't move to Beijing and start teaching Tai Chi (the first Chen to do this) until 1928.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:03 am

GrahamB wrote:
Trick wrote:
GrahamB wrote:Chen Yanxi taught was "Chen family Boxing" - not Taijiquan, i.e. before anybody with the surname Chen had encountered this thing called "Taijiquan" that was taught in Beijing. It's pretty easy for an experienced (and real) martial artist to learn a form and adapt it to his way of doing things, which is what happened once the Chen people encountered Taijiquan in Beijing and realised that this was an easy way to support yourself financially.

But the Yangs and Wu’s moved to Shanghai/Nanjing area where the big bucks and big fame could be made made . Why did not the Chen’s follow them at that point, ok, perhaps a Taiji vacuum had been left behind in Beijing when the Yangs and Wus left which the Chen’s took advantage of ?
Anyway everyone knew Shanghai and Nanjing were the hotspots of opportunities in China at the time, even the villagers in Chen village must have known that ?


What years are you talking about? The Chens arrived late to the Tai Chi party. Chen Zhaopi didn't move to Beijing and start teaching Tai Chi (the first Chen to do this) until 1928.

wasnt that the year YCF left for Shanghai, not sure about when Wu Chien Chuan went south, perhaps the same year ? maybe the Chens saw an opening then in beijing, ? in shanghao the competition would have been too stiff
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby GrahamB on Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:49 am

I don't know - maybe Yang Cheng Fu didn't fancy taking on the Chens suddenly arriving in Beijing and got the hell out of dodge? The Chens had an existing Tai Chi market to exploit there, and were going to do so.

Or maybe they were all just going where the Republic told them to go? There was a lot going on politically in 1928.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby marvin8 on Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:48 am

Trick wrote:
Yeung wrote: Taijiquan practitioners promoting the use of brute force and Qinna.

But the equivalent to the art of Qinna in Japan is called Jujutsu(soft techniques), wouldn’t that be the same approach in Chinese qinna ? So why can’t that be part of TJQ?

Also per Yeung's definition of "brute force," brute force is part of TJQ. As studies have proven, both concentric and eccentric muscle contractions are used in TJQ movements.

"A working definition of "brute force:"

Yeung wrote:My working definition of “brute force” for IMA is voluntary concentric muscle contraction.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:57 am

I have yet to see a martial art that uses brute force
Always refined energy to some degree
That is the side effect of training
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Yeung on Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:52 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Trick wrote:
Yeung wrote: Taijiquan practitioners promoting the use of brute force and Qinna.

But the equivalent to the art of Qinna in Japan is called Jujutsu(soft techniques), wouldn’t that be the same approach in Chinese qinna ? So why can’t that be part of TJQ?

Also per Yeung's definition of "brute force," brute force is part of TJQ. As studies have proven, both concentric and eccentric muscle contractions are used in TJQ movements.

"A working definition of "brute force:"

Yeung wrote:My working definition of “brute force” for IMA is voluntary concentric muscle contraction.


For your reference:

https://www.archives-pmr.org/action/sho ... %2990042-X

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjsports/37/4/339.full.pdf

Actually, it is interesting to workout which is which as electromyograph can not tell the difference, nor the combine use of both forces. Please do not quote out of context.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Yeung on Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:54 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I have yet to see a martial art that uses brute force
Always refined energy to some degree
That is the side effect of training

This is why I would differentiate between eccentric, concentric, and both in various intensities.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby marvin8 on Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:59 pm

Yeung wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Also per Yeung's definition of "brute force," brute force is part of TJQ. As studies have proven, both concentric and eccentric muscle contractions are used in TJQ movements.

"A working definition of "brute force:"

Yeung wrote:My working definition of “brute force” for IMA is voluntary concentric muscle contraction.


For your reference:

https://www.archives-pmr.org/action/sho ... %2990042-X

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjsports/37/4/339.full.pdf

Actually, it is interesting to workout which is which as electromyograph can not tell the difference, nor the combine use of both forces. Please do not quote out of context.

I didn't. I quoted your definition and linked the entire context (thread).

Like all your other "references," none say TJQ only uses eccentric muscle contraction, not concentric. Can you clarify your own statement(s)?
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:35 pm

GrahamB wrote:I don't know - maybe Yang Cheng Fu didn't fancy taking on the Chens suddenly arriving in Beijing and got the hell out of dodge? The Chens had an existing Tai Chi market to exploit there, and were going to do so.

Or maybe they were all just going where the Republic told them to go? There was a lot going on politically in 1928.

You mean politicians told Yang and Wu to go south to teach, ad told Chen to go to Beijing to teach.....?....sounds far fetched...I think it was personal choices seeking opportunities not led by brute force...
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Yeung on Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:36 am

marvin8 wrote:I didn't. I quoted your definition and linked the entire context (thread).

Like all your other "references," none say TJQ only uses eccentric muscle contraction, not concentric. Can you clarify your own statement(s)?


Sorry, I have said, "It is kind of funny for people call themselves Taijiquan practitioners promoting the use of brute force and Qinna." As you sort of quoted part of it from Trick but I should have said "it is kind of funny for SOME people".

From one of the authors in the references, his review in 2007 said that the problem with doing research in Taijiquan is that they do not have a testing variable. The black box approach in research is always troublesome. If your input is eccentric and concentric exercises you will get something like eccentric and concentric, and in this case doing Taijiquan with both eccentric and concentric your result will be improvements in both strengths.
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Re: The Taijiquan of Chen Yanxi 陈延禧 (熙)

Postby Yeung on Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:56 am

Trick wrote:
Yeung wrote: Taijiquan practitioners promoting the use of brute force and Qinna.

But the equivalent to the art of Qinna in Japan is called Jujutsu(soft techniques), wouldn’t that be the same approach in Chinese qinna ? So why can’t that be part of TJQ?

Some Taijiquan practitioners have a background in Qinna will find that the arts of Taijiquan is to encounter Qinna, so why would they need to do Qinna by stiffen up their wrist? Taijiquan tells people not to use brute force because the end result is stiffened up and has no defense to a pull encounter, so why did they teach people to stiffen up their punches to produce a few shakes at the end of a strike like in Bruce Lee movies? Maybe they just do not know how to neutralize a powerful punch that is all.
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