Rotation of the crotch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby roger hao on Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:54 pm

Rotate crotch - move like a Beaver

OK - I am starting to gain some interest

Will we add pole shaking?
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby Yeung on Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:10 am

suckinlhbf wrote:Is crotch called 底骨?


No, 骶骨(sacrum) is not part of the crotch but it contribute to the movement of the crotch.

Wiki: The sacrum is situated at the upper, back part of the pelvic cavity, between the two wings of the pelvis.
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby Ron Panunto on Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:08 am

It's dantian rotation (Chenjia).
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby HotSoup on Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:17 am

Yeung wrote:I was told that “rotation of the crotch” is not a desired movement in Tai Chi chuan. Can someone explain it to me?


You sure it was actually "rotation", not "twisting"? Keeping the dang round is one of the essential requirements. Twisting it is not desired because it can break the whole-body connection.
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby KEND on Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:52 am

In Hsing yi the hips can be used either with the ribs or independently for pi==rise/fall and beng--open/close. In initial training this starts as linear but eventually becomes a circle. In TCC the rise/fall can be used in uprooting, the beng for diverting an incoming force vector
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:40 am

Crotch rotation would need a flexible hip. Before teen, the sacrum and pelvic can move separately and they are fused after teen. The muscles/tendons around that area are the strongest and toughest of the whole body to support the body weight. It seems impossible to repossess the gap between the sacrum and pelvic after the teen age. If it is made possible, the connection to the ground while rotating crotch is stronger than rotating dantian.
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby marvin8 on Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:42 am

Yeung wrote:I think the translation of kua胯 as crotch should be correct.

Not according to Yang Jun, Chen Zhonghua and others. Kua is inguinal crease and Dang is crotch.

Image

Image

Yeung wrote:In humans, the crotch is the bottom of the pelvis, the region of the body where the legs join the torso, and is often considered to include the groin and genitals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotch

Zhuan 转 means turn or rotate

Zhuan Kua 转胯 is a Tai Chi term which means turn the crotch or rotate the crotch.

From my observation most practitioners push with their rear legs to move to a forward stance, maybe this is why Zhuan Kua is not applicable but why it is not a desired movement?

Per Yang Jun, Chen Zhonghua and others, the kua (inguinal crease/hip joint) folds/unfolds, opens/closes, etc., guiding the waist.
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:16 am

How can he sink if power goes along the red arrows in Fig.2. Or, are they the direction of the power rebounced from the ground after sinking.
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby marvin8 on Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:26 am

oragami_itto wrote:Never heard of rotating the crotch per se.
I've heard of making the crotch rounded and the lowest vertebrae plumb by "sitting on the legs like a barstool" but never rotating the crotch


Here is what Yeung means by "rotating the crotch," which I don't necessarily see (rotating the dang):

marvin8 wrote:Yeung gave an example of a non-concentric movement (his opinion), Absorb and Repel, https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 5&start=15:

Yeung wrote:Here is an example of rotating the crotch (angle or region of the angle formed by the junction of two parts or members,such as two legs or branches.):

https://www.facebook.com/39716348706001 ... 414084219/

Maybe you can compare that with some videos on Taijiquan as they push concentrically forward instead of rotating the crotch to generate power.
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby Yeung on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:05 am

Most Chinese knew the Chinese idiom: Kua Xia Zhi Ru 胯下之辱, and the meaning of Kua is very clear.

A google translation:

[Word name]: The humiliation of His Majesty
[Pinyin]: kuà xià zhī rǔ
[Explanation]: His Majesty: between the two legs.
[example]: Have you heard the story of Han Xin’s “Insult to His Majesty”?
Last edited by Yeung on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:48 pm

marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Never heard of rotating the crotch per se.
I've heard of making the crotch rounded and the lowest vertebrae plumb by "sitting on the legs like a barstool" but never rotating the crotch


Here is what Yeung means by "rotating the crotch," which I don't necessarily see (rotating the dang):

marvin8 wrote:Yeung gave an example of a non-concentric movement (his opinion), Absorb and Repel, https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 5&start=15:

Yeung wrote:Here is an example of rotating the crotch (angle or region of the angle formed by the junction of two parts or members,such as two legs or branches.):

https://www.facebook.com/39716348706001 ... 414084219/

Maybe you can compare that with some videos on Taijiquan as they push concentrically forward instead of rotating the crotch to generate power.

Ah, well, horizontally I guess makes sense.

So is it a good thing? Bad thing? I generally think of that kind of motion as opening one kua and closing the other.


Yeung wrote:Most Chinese knew the Chinese idiom: Kua Xia Zhi Ru 胯下之辱, and the meaning of Kua is very clear.

A google translation:

[Word name]: The humiliation of His Majesty
[Pinyin]: kuà xià zhī rǔ
[Explanation]: His Majesty: between the two legs.
[example]: Have you heard the story of Han Xin’s “Insult to His Majesty”?


Dang!

(for the non-native speakers, "Dang" is a euphemism for "Damn" which literally means "to condemn to burn in hell" but can be used as a general exclamation of surprise, delight, disappointment, amazement, or intense realization, that kind of ruins the joke, but in a way it becomes its own new joke)
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby Bhassler on Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:59 pm

So are you wanting to discuss whether twisting the penis is good or bad in taiji practice? All I can say is that your training and mine are likely very different experiences...
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:20 pm

Man you guys are SO LUCKY they took down meatspin.com right now
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby I-mon on Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:22 am

I love that beaver!
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Re: Rotation of the crotch

Postby charles on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:27 am

marvin8 wrote:Here is what Yeung means by "rotating the crotch," which I don't necessarily see (rotating the dang):

Yeung wrote:Here is an example of rotating the crotch (angle or region of the angle formed by the junction of two parts or members,such as two legs or branches.):

https://www.facebook.com/39716348706001 ... 414084219/


What I see in that video is mostly rotation at the ankles accompanied by a weight shift. If that is what is meant by "rotating the crotch", then, as I've learned it, it is undesirable. If you eliminate the weight shift to isolate the primary action, you'll see that mostly he is simply rotating the entire body - as a "slab" - from the ankles. (Try it.)

Without getting too deep down the rabbit hole, he would be easy to topple since all one needs to do is to "help" him continue rotating in the same direction - a light push on his rear shoulder, for example - until he has rotated beyond the end of his range of motion, at which point he'll lose his balance and fall or step. In short, he has no separation of "yin" and "yang" - everything is moving in one direction as a unit.

oragami_itto wrote: I generally think of that kind of motion as opening one kua and closing the other.


As I learned it, the motion shown in the video is the antithesis of opening and closing the hips/kua.
Last edited by charles on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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