The history of Xingyi podcast

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:16 am

This is not really part 5 - just a quick diversion into the Sung Dynasty through a look at one of the classic paintings of the era. "Along the river in the Ching Ming festival".

#19 The Rainbow Bridge

We return to China in the Song Dynasty, looking through the eyes of artist Zhang Zeduan at the vibrant economy that developed among the common people while their confucian rulers were distracted by external events, and the nascent Industrial Revolution that it gave rise to, which lasted until the early part of the Ming Dynasty.

https://www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/1 ... bow-bridge

Image

This link gives you access to the whole scroll to look at as you listen. It's 17 foot long!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Along_the ... g_Festival

Xingyi Part 5 proper is coming in the next couple of days. It's a good one!
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby GrahamB on Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:09 am

Xingyi Part 5

In this episode we examine the work of the Confucian Scholar Zhu Xi, who lived during the time period we have reached in the narrative (during the Song Dynasty). His philosophy did not impact Xing Yi until centuries later, but when it did, the effect was a large one, so this episode sets the scene for other episodes to come.


https://www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/20-xing-yi-part-5

———-
The ‘woo woo’ Tai Chi world view

If you practice Tai Chi or almost any of the Chinese martial arts that had input from the intellectual class then you need to know about Zhu Xi, although you might not like what we’ve got to say about him :)
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby taiwandeutscher on Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:18 pm

Having not heard your podcast yet, I know most of Zhu Xi's work on syncretic neo-confucianism as a primary source for my oral rigorosum. I did hate that guy, responsible for setting certain scholarly opinions and exam standards into stone. He is probably the scholar most responsible for creating bureaucratic, inflexible, and dead root learning for governmental testing.
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby GrahamB on Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:04 am

That’s the guy :)

If it wasn’t for him Xingyi practitioners would never have got the five elements and tai chi practitioners would have to think of another name for their supreme ultimate art :)
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby Tom on Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:04 am

GrahamB wrote:That’s the guy :)

If it wasn’t for him . . . tai chi practitioners would have to think of another name for their supreme ultimate art :)


Stand-up BJJ? ;D
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby Bao on Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:53 am

"If it wasn’t for him Xingyi practitioners would never have got the five elements and tai chi practitioners would have to think of another name for their supreme ultimate art"


It was pre Neo-Confucianist Zhou (Dun) Yi who created the Tai Chi Tu Shuo and invented the term Taiji and explained that only humans had the full potential of the Five Elements. What Zhu Xi has to do with this terminology or Xingyi I have no idea about. Zhou Xi was the reason that Confucianism was re-institutionalized and also the of cause of dividing the new Confucianism into two schools, Lixue and Xinxue, the schools of Principle and Mind. Zhouxi represented the first one, but the second one has had far greater impact on Tai Chi Chuan, Martial arts and on Chinese learning and teaching systems in general, mostly because of Wang Yangming who taught that real knowledge comes from doing, not by thinking.

"Knowledge is the beginning of practice; doing is the completion of knowing."
- Wang Yangming
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:32 am

Bao wrote:It was pre Neo-Confucianist Zhou (Dun) Yi who created the Tai Chi Tu Shuo and invented the term Taiji and explained that only humans had the full potential of the Five Elements. What Zhu Xi has to do with this terminology or Xingyi I have no idea about. Zhou Xi was the reason that Confucianism was re-institutionalized and also the of cause of dividing the new Confucianism into two schools, Lixue and Xinxue, the schools of Principle and Mind. Zhouxi represented the first one, but the second one has had far greater impact on Tai Chi Chuan, Martial arts and on Chinese learning and teaching systems in general, mostly because of Wang Yangming who taught that real knowledge comes from doing, not by...

Could you post a link to the Zhou Dunyi texts about the 5 elements? I want to compare it to the daoist book called the Wenshi Zhenjing, which says animals only have the 4 symbols (四符), but only human beings have a the fifth symbol- Earth (yi/ intent), which makes it 5 elements.

.
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby robert on Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:46 am

Bao wrote:It was pre Neo-Confucianist Zhou (Dun) Yi who created the Tai Chi Tu Shuo and invented the term Taiji and explained that only humans had the full potential of the Five Elements.

The term/character Taiji appears in Wang Bi's version of the Yijing/Xici around 226-249 CE. The term appears in Wilhelm's translation of the Yijing - I don't know what version he used for his translation.
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby Bao on Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:09 pm

robert wrote:
Bao wrote:It was pre Neo-Confucianist Zhou (Dun) Yi who created the Tai Chi Tu Shuo and invented the term Taiji and explained that only humans had the full potential of the Five Elements.

The term/character Taiji appears in Wang Bi's version of the Yijing/Xici around 226-249 CE. The term appears in Wilhelm's translation of the Yijing - I don't know what version he used for his translation.


The Yijing consists of different parts. The Xicizhuan is a sort of "instruction manual" or explanation about how the principle of "Yi" works. It was studied by both Zhou Yi and Zhuxi, they both did adjustments, small re-arrangements and inserted comments on it. There's a line in the Xicizhuan were "sanji" or "three ultimates" are mentioned meaning Heaven, Earth, and Human. Chuxi inserted a comment on this line and referred to Zhou Dunyi's term "Tai Chi". This is why this term is found in the Xicizhuan. It was not originally found in the Yijing.
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby Bao on Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:18 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Could you post a link to the Zhou Dunyi texts about the 5 elements? I want to compare it to the daoist book called the Wenshi Zhenjing, which says animals only have the 4 symbols (四符), but only human beings have a the fifth symbol- Earth (yi/ intent), which makes it 5 elements.
.


It's in the Taiji Tushuo. Below is a link to a version with Chu Xi's comments inserted. There are also good comments from the translator with further explanations.
https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/ ... TS-Zhu.pdf

"The alternation and combination of yang and yin generate water, fire, wood, metal, and earth. With these five [phases of] qi harmoniously arranged, the Four Seasons proceed through them." (Page 7)

"Supreme Polarity is simply a principle. Spinning about, it divides into the two qi. The activity within is yang, and the stillness is yin. It also divides in the five qi, and separates into the myriad things." (Page 8, Chuxi's comment)

"Only humans receive the finest and most spiritually efficacious [qi]. Once formed, they are born; when spirit (shen) is manifested, they have intelligence; when their five-fold natures are stimulated into activity, good and evil are distinguished and the myriad affairs ensue." (Page 12)

But this translation is not very clear concerning the influence of the five elements. Better to compare other versions. I'll see if I can trace a couple of better ones.
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby Bob on Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:27 pm

Yinyang and the Development of Systematic Cosmology

Figure 2.2 Dunyi's Taijitu, p. 75

"Zhou Dunyi (1071-1073) is considered the forerunner of the Neo-Confucianism an founder of Daoxue in the Song Dynasty. He published a "Diagram of the Great Ultimate" (see figure 2.2) and wrote a concise 256-word philosophical account of it (Taijitu Shuo). Zhou's influence set the parameters according to which yinyang theory was assimilated metaphysically and systematically into later Confucian Thought and practice.

Zhou Dunyi's Taijitu consists of five images, along with six line inscriptions. The first images is a circle placed directly under the inscription "Ultimate Void (Wuji) is Great Ultimate (Taiji)." The second image consists of interlocking empty and shaded areas forming six semicircles with a smaller empty circle circle in the middle. This image is of Fiji hexagram of he Yijing, which we have just discussed. A correct reading of it should start from the middle and divide this image into two parts. etc. etc. etc.

... The Third image of the Taijitu is the flow of the five phases or elements (wuxing) fire, water, earth, wood, and metal. One of Zhou Dunyi's efforts is to integrate the five elements into the rhythmic pattern of yinyang. . . Although later Neo-Confucians, follown Zhu Xi, would express critical reservations about Zhou Dunyi's location of the yinyang dynamic withing taiji itself, he remains the first to explicate these forces in term of dong and jing. This is one of Zhou Dunyi's major philosophical contributions to yinyang theory. As we have see, the concept of yinyang has been employed to construct a justification for the structure of the universe at least since the Yijing. These classics would argue the yinyang is the main force penetrating all beings in the universe. However, they fall short of disclosing how and in what ways yin and yang perform their functions for undertakings. Zhou Dunyi correlates dong and jing with yang and yin and, thus, confers a specific framework on ying thought. The functions of yang and yin are manifested in the form of movement (dong) and rest (jing); in other words, dong and jing are modes of yinyang activity.

Following Zhou Dunyi, Zhu Xi identifies yin and yang with his concepts of ti (structure) and yong (function)

Yinyang: The Way of Heaven and Earth in Chinese Thought and Culture, Robin R. Wang, Cambridge University Press, 2012 pp. 74 - 78
Robin R. Wang is Daum Professor in the Bellarmine College of Liberal Arts, Professor of Philosophy, and Director of Asian Pacific Studies at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles.
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby robert on Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:34 pm

Bao wrote:The Yijing consists of different parts. The Xicizhuan is a sort of "instruction manual" or explanation about how the principle of "Yi" works. It was studied by both Zhou Yi and Zhuxi, they both did adjustments, small re-arrangements and inserted comments on it. There's a line in the Xicizhuan were "sanji" or "three ultimates" are mentioned meaning Heaven, Earth, and Human. Chuxi inserted a comment on this line and referred to Zhou Dunyi's term "Tai Chi". This is why this term is found in the Xicizhuan. It was not originally found in the Yijing.

From the Wilhelm translation of the Yijing/Xici -

5. Therefore there is in the changes the Great Primal Beginning. This generates the two primary forces. The two primary forces generate the four images. The four images generate the eight trigrams.

(Commentary) The Great Primal Beginning, t'ai chi, plays an important role in later Chinese natural philosophy. ...


It is in Legge's translation as well.

7o. Therefore in (the system of) the Yî there is the Grand Terminus, which produced the two elementary Forms. Those two Forms produced the Four emblematic Symbols, which again produced the eight Trigrams.


是故,易有太極,是生兩儀,兩儀生四象,四象生八卦,八卦定吉凶,吉凶生大業。是故,法象莫大乎天地,變通莫大乎四時,縣象著明莫大乎日月,崇高莫大乎富貴;備物致用,立成器以為天下利,莫大乎聖人;探賾索隱,鉤深致遠,以定天下之吉凶,成天下之亹亹者,莫大乎蓍龜。
Therefore in (the system of) the Yi there is the Grand Terminus, which produced the two elementary Forms. Those two Forms produced the Four emblematic Symbols, which again produced the eight Trigrams. The eight trigrams served to determine the good and evil (issues of events), and from this determination was produced the (successful prosecution of the) great business (of life). Therefore of all things that furnish models and visible figures there are none greater than heaven and earth; of things that change and extend an influence (on others) there are none greater than the four seasons; of things suspended (in the sky) with their figures displayed clear and bright, there are none greater than the sun and moon; of the honoured and exalted there are none greater than he who is the rich and noble (one); in preparing things for practical use, and inventing and making instruments for the benefit of all under the sky, there are none greater than the sages; to explore what is complex, search out what is hidden, to hook up what lies deep, and reach to what is distant, thereby determining (the issues) for good or ill of all events under the sky, and making all men under heaven full of strenuous endeavours, there are no (agencies) greater than those of the stalks and the tortoise-shell.


https://ctext.org/book-of-changes/xi-ci-shang
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby taiwandeutscher on Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:25 pm

Bao wrote:
"If it wasn’t for him Xingyi practitioners would never have got the five elements and tai chi practitioners would have to think of another name for their supreme ultimate art"


It was pre Neo-Confucianist Zhou (Dun) Yi who created the Tai Chi Tu Shuo and invented the term Taiji and explained that only humans had the full potential of the Five Elements. What Zhu Xi has to do with this terminology or Xingyi I have no idea about. Zhou Xi was the reason that Confucianism was re-institutionalized and also the of cause of dividing the new Confucianism into two schools, Lixue and Xinxue, the schools of Principle and Mind. Zhouxi represented the first one, but the second one has had far greater impact on Tai Chi Chuan, Martial arts and on Chinese learning and teaching systems in general, mostly because of Wang Yangming who taught that real knowledge comes from doing, not by thinking.

"Knowledge is the beginning of practice; doing is the completion of knowing."
- Wang Yangming


In fact, the term Taiji was already used in the Ten Wings, Appendix 1 Xici shang, chap. 11, the commentaries of the Yijing, the Zhouyi (only existent version of Yijing). Zhou Dunyi just did the graphics, with the 5 phases, and his own interpretation. In in all those times, more than 1500 yrs., Taiji philosophy always was imminent in Chinese philosophy, be it confucian, daoist or buddhist.

After many yrs. of research as a sinologist and also training in the arts, I'm convinced that use of a philosophy in a martial art was mostly done for reasons of legitimization.
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby wuwei on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:32 pm

I read that Zhu Xi is not only responsible for the worst of Confucianism has to offer, he was personally a major asshole and hypocrite.
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Re: The history of Xingyi podcast

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:44 am

It wouldn't surprise me if he was :)

We recorded part 6 last night - very interesting. Getting closer to the threat that nobody saw coming - the Mongols ;D
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