Notable Chen fighters

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Notable Chen fighters

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:18 pm

Yang Lu Chan and his son Ban Hou were both called Yang the Invincible due to their demonstrated fighting prowess. Yang Cheng Fu was known as an accomplished fighter and even Cheng Man Ching had a reputation built on publicly defeating many challengers.

I'm surely only showing my ignorance but what about the Chens? As I understand it the style was still quite secret until the early 20th century so it's not surprising that there are few stories circulating. Recently they've got a few names competing in propaganda matches, but what about Chen Masters famous for anything other than being head of the system or surviving some wars and creating it?
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby everything on Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:34 pm

What was the testing method?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby Steve James on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:08 pm

When it comes to martial arts history, there are more legends than records of fighters. However, the Nanjing (Central Guohou) Academy brought together martial artists from across China,. There was a tournament, but the internal styles didn't win. Though, Yang Chen Fu, Wu Chian Chuan, and Sun Lu Tang were there as teachers. Iinm, no one representing Chen style was there. YCF and WCC left Nanjing to open schools in Shanghai in 1929 (iinm). My point is that if there were people to be known, theyd have been known there, and there are records. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Guoshu_Institute

Feng [oops, I meant Chen Fa Ke] was certainly a capable fighter, but I think he didn't get to Beijing until 1928. So, he may have been unknown.

Edit: see https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009 ... institute/ for some stories about competitions.
Last edited by Steve James on Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby Bao on Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:09 am

You don’t need to discuss truth of stories and legends. There’s real fact to go after.just that there are several Yang “masters” who worked as military combat instructors and others who were coaches of Sanda teams. That is a better indicator of good combat and fighting skills amongst Yang Tai Chi practitioners than all sorts of verbally transmitted stories.
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby Storm on Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:02 am

This is the only information I found about a big Leitai with hundreds of competitors from different styles:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/wulinmings ... ament/amp/
Maybe somebody else has some other interesting facts. In this tournament it seems only Xingyi fighters (maybe some were training Xinyi Liuhe Quan) placed in the top 5.

I found references to 2 Leitai tournaments in 1928 (April & October) and one in 1933 beside this November 1929 Leitai but no detailed rankings or descriptions of the events.
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby GrahamB on Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:49 am

I believe Chen Fa Ka was a known ass-kicker. However, after that it turned into a way to make money (as did most other Tai Chi styles). Ass-kicking doesn't really work in that context :)

In 'modern' times a lot of the Chen village guys entered San Da tournaments. I'm sure a lot of these were fixed propaganda events, but they were at least training very hard for real fighting.

I don't know of any Yang style guys who have done well in San Da.

Born in 1990, Wang Yan became head coach of Cheng village training centre in 2013 and is as a Taiji fighter as well as a coach, not to mention an expert in forms. He was one of the “nine tigers” – the best nine students of Chen ZiQiang. There’s an interview with him in English on Chen Taijiquan blog, with some great pictures from his private collection. The interview is pretty long, but there are lots of really interesting insights into his daily training, San Da competitions training and how exhausting it all was!

I’ve cherry-picked a few quotes below:

from:

https://chentaijisi.wordpress.com/2018/ ... an-school/

On his own training:

"Our daily routine started in the morning with running and warming-up excercises. In the first morning class we studied forms, in the second class we did strength excercices, in the third class we did push hands exercises, kicks, punches and other self defense techniques, and during the last evening class we were again doing push hands exercises, and sometimes weight lifting.”

“When a student grows a little older, reaching his late teens and early twenties, then the school starts putting much more attention to learning taolu (forms).”

“When I was a young student, the training was more strenous then now. The approach has changed nowadays towards a somewhat softer way. Students now come from more comfortable backgrounds and are, generally speaking, often more interested in computer games than in serious training.”

"To develop stamina we would practice frog jumps, running in a crouched position, running while carrying someone on our shoulders etc., until the point where I would be absolutely exhausted.

One method of practicing tuishou was, for example, being in a circle of about twenty students, who would challenge you one after another. When I knock the first one down, the next one would attack, and so on till the last one, after which the circle repeats itself. I also practiced the same circle exercise blindfolded in order to sharpen body sensations. Sometimes during wintertime, shifu would take us outside, dressed just in trousers, to train in the snow. One of exercises was to hold each other by the legs while ‘hand walking’ on the cold or frozen ground.

Before tuishou competitions I always have to control my weight, so during preparation time I would eat less and avoid spicy and very greasy food. Finally, after hard training, it is also important to have a proper rest.”
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby HotSoup on Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:15 am

oragami_itto wrote:Yang Lu Chan and his son Ban Hou were both called Yang the Invincible due to their demonstrated fighting prowess. Yang Cheng Fu was known as an accomplished fighter and even Cheng Man Ching had a reputation built on publicly defeating many challengers.

I'm surely only showing my ignorance but what about the Chens? As I understand it the style was still quite secret until the early 20th century so it's not surprising that there are few stories circulating. Recently they've got a few names competing in propaganda matches, but what about Chen Masters famous for anything other than being head of the system or surviving some wars and creating it?


What are the criteria of defining a "Chen fighter"? Someone who studied Chen style? How about Yang Luchan himself then? :P
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby wiesiek on Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:40 am

commenting Graham post:
It interesting to note, that if we change names from >forms< to the tatami work , and tuishou for randori
/rest more or less the same/we have my early judo trainings ,/ ...:)
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby Bao on Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:02 am

I don't know of any Yang style guys who have done well in San Da.


Li Yaxuan, Yang Chengfu’s most gifted disciple, was head coach for the Beijing Sanda team. People from various backgrounds as well as own Tai Chi students competed. The participants were not labeled as individuals from this or that style, they fought as members of the Sanda team. The team did good.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby GrahamB on Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:17 am

Bao wrote:
I don't know of any Yang style guys who have done well in San Da.


Li Yaxuan, Yang Luchan’s most gifted disciple, was head coach for the Beijing Sanda team. People from various backgrounds as well as own Tai Chi students competed. The participants were not labeled as individuals from this or that style, they fought as members of the Sanda team. The team did good.


Yang Luchan died in 1872.

Li Yaxuan was born in 1894. Died 1972.
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby Bao on Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:24 am

Meant Yang Chengfu obviously. Everyone knows Li Yaxuan was his student.
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby GrahamB on Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:44 am

1930s San Da training.

This would have been the Koushou movement, I guess.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdQE9cXMSAM
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby GrahamB on Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:19 am

Kuo Shou "national arts" were taught as a selection of martial arts - so the students would be learning a variety of simplified routines and sparring. Xingyi, Norther Shaolin, Bagua etc.. Tai Chi would be one of the arts taught.

I don't think you could say any of these students were learning "Yang style Taijiquan". Presumably, Li's title as director was slightly honourific (or political), and he would be teaching students the Tai Chi portion of the syllabus.

I doubt that Li himself would have been getting into the ring.
Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby GrahamB on Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:32 am

"Career
From 1929 to 1934, Li Yaxuan served as a chief teacher at the Wushu Gymnasium in Hangzhou in the Zhejiang Province. In 1934, a T’ai Chi Ch’uan society was established in Nanjing and Li was chosen to be the director. In 1935, Li held the position of wushu instructor in the Nanjing Sports School. He served there until the outbreak of the war of resistance against Japan in 1937, when the Japanese bombed Nanjing. That year, Mr. Li arrived in Chengdu, the capital of the Sichuan Province. It was at this time that he brought the art of T’ai Chi Ch’uan to Sichuan, China’s most populous province, located in the southwest.

Legacy
Li taught T’ai Chi Ch’uan in Chengdu up until his death in 1976. He also won honors at many martial arts competitions across China.

In 1992, Chen Longxiang (陈龙骧, b.1948), Li Yaxuan’s son-in-law and foremost disciple, and Li Mindi, (李敏第, b.1951), Li’s daughter, compiled and edited a collection of writings on T’ai Chi Ch’uan by Li Yaxuan, which they published as Yang Style T’ai Chi Ch’uan Essential Explanation (杨氏太极拳法精解). Chen and Li are also co-directors of the Li Yaxuan T’ai Chi Ch’uan Wushuguan in Chengdu where they continue to train a new generation of students in the Yang-style tradition as transmitted by Li Yaxuan."

https://www.wikidoc.org/index.php/Li_Yaxuan
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Re: Notable Chen fighters

Postby Trick on Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:41 am

After the passing of YCF, Li Yaxuan was by his GongFu brothers(on mainland China)considered the head of Yang Taijiquan . Having an prominent figure as the head of an Organisation or team gives more prominence to that team…… Li Yaxuan as the head of Beijing sanda team, I’ve never heard. As i understood he always stayed in the south., Shanghai/Nanjing and then Chengdu ?
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