Dang裆 and Kua胯

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Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby Yeung on Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:32 am

Dang and Kua are not anatomical terms as they prescribe certain parts of a pair of trousers. Dang is where the trouser legs are connected, the rises of the front and back; it commonly refers to as the groin, the pelvis connected to the hip joints and sacrum. Kua is the crotch or the inseams of trouser legs, it commonly refers to as the stance. There are these terms in the Handbook of Chinese Martial Arts edited by Kang Gewu (1990), pages 445-446;

Yuan Dang圆裆 (rounded groin)
Diao Dang吊裆 (hang up the groin)
Guo Dang裹裆 (wrap the groin)
Kou Dang扣裆 (buckle the groin)

Chou Kua抽胯 (pull up the stance)
Suo Kua缩胯 (contract the stance)
Zuo Kua坐胯 (sit on the stance)
Luo Kua落胯 (lower the stance)

This is not a comprehensive list of Dang and Kua, as the movements of the pelvis in terms of range of motion of hip joints, sacrum, knees, and ankles are very complex. There should be other references to Dang and Kua.
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby robert on Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:33 am

Images for the groin.

Image

Image

These images match my understanding of the dang.
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby marvin8 on Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:48 am

Excerpt from "Chen Style Tai Chi Foundation: Progress in Fundamental Skills and Knowledge..." https://brisbanechentaichi.weebly.com/s ... ledge.html:

Taught by Master Chen Yingjun, son of Chen Xiaowang, in March 2011 by private lesson, wrote:Buttock, Kua and Dang

Buttocks
• Follow direction of the spine
• Perpendicular to the ground
• Avoid protruding buttocks or tucking in too much – this may create tension and prevents legs from moving freely

Kua
• Kua needs to be relaxed
• It’s purpose is to facilitate the coordination of upper and lower body movements
• Turning of the waist from left to right and shifting of weights in the legs rely on kua being relaxed and loose.
• When the kua is relaxed, the weight burden on legs increases. If legs are not strong enough, the kua will tighten. As a result, knee extend over the toes, abdominals and chest stick out, and the body leaning backwards.
• Relaxed kua + smooth turning of waist = smooth weight transferring. From this, upper body is able to realize lightness or solidity.

Dang
• The shape of the legs when in a stance.
• The overall look of the stance (from pelvis downward) should be like an up-side-down ‘U’ and not like a ‘V’ shape.
• Muscles in the inner thigh have the feeling of slightly pushing outward.
• The dang should be light, flexible and relaxed.
• Collapsing dang: when buttocks drop below level of knees.
• The angle of bent legs should not be less than 90 degrees.
• Keeping the dang rounded and opened increases strength in the legs.

Image
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby everything on Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:12 am

is there any sports example where this term or concept seems practically helpful or at least illuminating as an observer if not practitioner
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby johnwang on Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:52 pm

everything wrote:is there any sports example where this term or concept seems practically helpful or at least illuminating as an observer if not practitioner

I was going to ask the same thing.

- Why do I need to train this?
- How can this improve my fighting skill?
- How can this improve my health?
- ...
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:51 pm

I guess the older generation don't really have to train Dang and Kua as they use 'squat toilet' for #2.
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby Trick on Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:28 am

everything wrote:is there any sports example where this term or concept seems practically helpful or at least illuminating as an observer if not practitioner

In most combat sports there’s at least a concern to wear a “Dang Dang” protection 8-) …………Well, for the males anyway 8-)
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby HotSoup on Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:21 am

johnwang wrote:I was going to ask the same thing.

- Why do I need to train this?
- How can this improve my fighting skill?
- How can this improve my health?
- ...

The simplest answers would be:
1. To improve your fighting skill and health :)
2. By getting more stability. Helps with both grappling and striking.
3. By training the stabilizer muscles not much engaged in everyday life. There are less-proven effects akin to improving the work of the endocrine system, but I don't have much evidence to back it up.
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby everything on Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:43 am

Trick wrote:
everything wrote:is there any sports example where this term or concept seems practically helpful or at least illuminating as an observer if not practitioner

In most combat sports there’s at least a concern to wear a “Dang Dang” protection 8-) …………Well, for the males anyway 8-)


;D
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby LaoDan on Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:46 am

johnwang wrote:
everything wrote:is there any sports example where this term or concept seems practically helpful or at least illuminating as an observer if not practitioner

I was going to ask the same thing.

- Why do I need to train this?
- How can this improve my fighting skill?
- How can this improve my health?
- ...

The importance is for avoiding the “butting cow” (顶牛 ding niu) error (using primarily horizontal force) that is often witnessed especially in things like push-hands. The rounded groin instead produces a more vertical force into the legs, like an architectural arch that directs forces down into the support columns (the lower legs) rather than outwards. Vertical force aligns with gravity and favors what we naturally practice every time we stand up.

I am in the process of writing an article on this, but I am not close to completing it. Here is a quote from my preliminary incomplete draft:
We habitually respond to forces in front of us by pushing back (resisting), or by pulling to our rear. This is, in effect, responding horizontally. We have taught ourselves from childhood to use our weight against resistant objects that we wish to move, which is reflected in the sayings “put your back into it” or “throwing your weight around.” If we push or pull against something that suddenly gives way, we can lose our balance and may fall down. This is the result of acting on forces horizontally. This horizontal approach can be exploited because of the loss of stability when the pressure suddenly changes, and Taijiquan warns against leaning against the opponent.

The vertical forces through the lower legs produced by rounding the crotch ties in with so many other directives in TJQ that also aid in producing more verticality in the forces (and “aligning with gravity”) such as: don’t lock the knees; don’t shift too far forward with your forward knee; maintain a level pelvis; concave the chest; sink the shoulders; sink the elbows...

To me it is about favoring vertical forces as opposed to horizontal ones like a butting cow. Not that a butting cow cannot produce powerful force, but that is just training strength against strength rather than optimizing structure (i.e., stacking the structure vertically with gravity). I think that we train to act differently than we act instinctively, and we want to maximize the springs through our legs rather than bracing (and tensing) to act horizontally.
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby everything on Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:03 am

Ah ok, thanks, that makes sense.
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby Trip on Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:51 pm

LaoDan wrote:The importance is for avoiding the “butting cow” (顶牛 ding niu) error (using primarily horizontal force) that is often witnessed especially in things like push-hands. The rounded groin instead produces a more vertical force into the legs, like an architectural arch that directs forces down into the support columns (the lower legs) rather than outwards. Vertical force aligns with gravity and favors what we naturally practice every time we stand up.


I see your planned article is in its early stages
but I’ve never heard the descriptions you use to describe horizontal force in Taiji.

I'm not saying you're wrong, however,
In Yang Style Vertical and Horizontal force is used & also combined.
Actually, there are many examples of using horizontal force in Yang Style writings.
For instance, Chen Weiming talks about using horizontal motion in applying Ward-off.

Chen Weiming wrote: In the case of ward-off, there is direct ward-off, horizontal ward-off, upward ward-off, or downward ward-off
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... ji-da-wen/


LaoDan wrote:...Here is a quote from my preliminary incomplete draft:
We habitually respond to forces in front of us by pushing back (resisting), or by pulling to our rear. This is, in effect, responding horizontally. We have taught ourselves from childhood to use our weight against resistant objects that we wish to move, which is reflected in the sayings “put your back into it” or “throwing your weight around.” If we push or pull against something that suddenly gives way, we can lose our balance and may fall down. This is the result of acting on forces horizontally. This horizontal approach can be exploited because of the loss of stability when the pressure suddenly changes, and Taijiquan warns against leaning against the opponent.


On the topic of losing stability, in his book The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan,
Yang Chengfu talks about using Horizontally energy to destabilize the opponent.

Chengfu wrote:At the same time, take the left hand and lift it up in front of the chest, with the heart of the palm facing in. The elbow drops slightly. Then, using my wrist to attach to the opponents arm between the elbow and wrist, I use horizontal energy (heng jin) to ward off forward and upwardly (peng qu). One must not show a stiff and wooden appearance; then, when the opponents strength has already been shifted by me, his position becomes unstable of its own accord.
Essence & Applications


It's interesting that you view horizontal force as "Strength against strength."

LaoDan wrote:To me it is about favoring vertical forces as opposed to horizontal ones like a butting cow. Not that a butting cow cannot produce powerful force, but that is just training strength against strength rather than optimizing structure (i.e., stacking the structure vertically with gravity). I think that we train to act differently than we act instinctively, and we want to maximize the springs through our legs rather than bracing (and tensing) to act horizontally.


In Yang Style it's opposite;
Horizontal motions are used to neutralize & Stick.

Anyway, just a few quick thoughts.
Don't know if any of this is helpful for your planned article. :)
Last edited by Trip on Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby LaoDan on Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:22 am

Thanks Trip,

I need to make it clearer that I am talking about the legs, not the expression of energy in the upper body and arms. Of course you will have the turning of the waist which will translate into horizontal forces and applications. The legs generate power from the ground, and the more vertical this is the less reliant one is on friction, and the more stable and centered one is. The waist gears that power into other planes of motion and the arms finish the expression of energy in any direction.

I suspect that most TJQ push-hands players have experimented with PH using a parallel stance (or even a one leg stance). This practices verticality into the legs (if one is not leaning on the partner), even though the interaction with the partner uses horizontal forces. The force against force is related to the butting cow image, where the force in the horizontally driving legs pushes the mass forward horizontally and loses the verticality into the legs or the “root” (loses central equilibrium). The tree image rooting into the ground is vertically aligned with gravity; it is strong horizontal winds/forces that topple the tree (breaks the verticality). In TJQ there is often talk about the verticality of the spine or the “stacking” of the body (or not leaning...) but there is less talk connecting this with the verticality into the lower legs (thus the reason for the pending article).
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby charles on Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:30 am

LaoDan wrote: In TJQ there is often talk about the verticality of the spine or the “stacking” of the body (or not leaning...) but there is less talk connecting this with the verticality into the lower legs (thus the reason for the pending article).


I think that will be a very good topic of discussion. I look forward to reading the article.
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Re: Dang裆 and Kua胯

Postby Trip on Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:25 am

LaoDan wrote:Thanks Trip,

I need to make it clearer that I am talking about the legs, not the expression of energy in the upper body and arms. Of course you will have the turning of the waist which will translate into horizontal forces and applications.

Ah, I think I see!

When you used "Pushing" & "Pulling" in your earlier post here:

LaoDan wrote:Here is a quote from my preliminary incomplete draft:
We habitually respond to forces in front of us by pushing back (resisting), or by pulling to our rear. This is, in effect, responding horizontally.


I thought you were talking about a "complete combined process"
and not just isolating 1 part of a process.

Plus, the use the "responding horizontally" has an action in Yang Taiji, that is different than the way you seem to be using it...blahdy-blah blah--

Anyway,

LaoDan wrote:I need to make it clearer that I am talking about the legs...

plus this:
In TJQ there is often talk about the verticality of the spine or the “stacking” of the body (or not leaning...) but there is less talk connecting this with the verticality into the lower legs (thus the reason for the pending article).


Well, then there’s only one thing to say to that.
I can’t wait to read it!

Oh, and sorry for - "Butting in". :)
Last edited by Trip on Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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