Dao versus Jian

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby origami_itto on Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:32 pm

Bhassler wrote:
everything wrote:what is your opinion about weapons-at-hand transferability? that is the only modern, practical reason I'd care now (nevermind history for its own interest). I mean like in the movies where jackie chan or someone picks up a chair, pot/pan, coffeepot, etc.


I think it's mostly fantasy. Youtube sucker punch muggings and try to find time to locate and pick up a weapon. If you know something is going to go down, just get a real weapon. The folks I know who live lifestyles where the sudden need for a weapon is a real thing spend time training with the actual weapons they are going to use, including retaining and/or drawing those weapons under fire.


But I doubt they're relying on jian or dao...
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:51 pm

Think kettle bell and Indian club
The Dao and Jian are training equipment as are the pole and spear
Pole
Spear
Knife
Sword
Each is a different level of refinement for the fist
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby Wanderingdragon on Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:05 pm

Just complete Misunderstanding of Jianfa . Born of weak or non existant empty hand mastery.
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby Subitai on Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:56 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:I don't understand the obsession with the Jian. They were barely used in the last thousand years and, from what I've been told, were then wielded in duelling and more akin to the European Smallsword, to maim but not kill. Prior to that it was much heavier and used in conjunction with a shield, the usage akin to the Roman Gladius. Why is this later, less practical method of Jianfa so popular today when it was Dao that were actually used on the battlefield (and elsewhere)? Was Jianfa some kind of game for the elite? All of the Wuxia bullshit just further elevates an inferior blade (plus other flowery, BS Gongfu). What are your thoughts?



I love to train them both. Both have there own uses. Strictly speaking about fencing, especially since you mentioned ("Duelling...to maim but not kill" )... as if Duelling is not hard core or wimpy!!! I seriously disagree with that notion.

= Either one handed with any sword or single weapon OR two handed fencing with poles and spears ect.... duelling in either format takes BALLS to do for real.

People talking about armor? That became lessor with the advent of guns.

MaartenSFS....I highly recommend you go to a Western style fencing SaL... ala any serious Euro style (French, Italian or Spanish)...or even combat HEMA (Historical Euro Martial Arts). It will change your view of what Straight swords or Rapier type for example can do in combat, even verses a good ol' Single edged Knife (Dao) . Before you even take the time to blink, there can be a HOLE put in your heart or face or foot or hand...haha. I joke, but yes it's fast and highly mobile.


*Which it pains me to say because I love my Chinese style Knife. John is also correct that it's an advantage being able to press with the back of the knife for cutting and power moves up close. But with leather gloves you can grabb the upper forte of a straight sword and also grapple with it as well. Plus it's a better and faster stabber than a dao type knife.

Example of one style: https://battlingblades.com/products/rap ... gIUS_D_BwE

Image

With plenty of room to move...I.e. not confined in an elevator or small room (joking) ... I'd prefer a straight sword
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby Trick on Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:23 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Those are good points. Rather than in formations, though, Dao could be used also on horseback and in smaller skirmishes. I am considering to learn my Master's short staff if I ever get the chance. It is thirteen fists long, a very practical (to carry) length and a very versatile weapon. It is, however, very dangerous to spar with, so there is still the posibility that I'll need to learn double Dao instead (which is quite different from the Daofa I have already learned and closer to unarmed combat). These are much shorter Dao.

next week ill begin to llearn the Biangan(short staff) from an neighbour who do some XYQ. the whipstick is about the same length as the japanese Jo which i practiced many years ago. Doing any free sparring with hard wood staff is not recomended, once i got hit on the head with a Jo and that was not comfortable with the blood pouring down in my face, and that was just from Kata practice 8-) im realy looking forward to mext week :)
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby Trick on Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:30 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Why either or?
The dao is a simpler weapon, you learn it and then you've got all the other stuff you can do with a jian to learn.

I mean, is practicality really why we do this?

yes, as an blade lover i would find them all interesting 8-)
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:34 am

Wanderingdragon wrote:Just complete Misunderstanding of Jianfa . Born of weak or non existant empty hand mastery.


Who are you referring to there
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby wiesiek on Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:43 am

Rapier is much faster , than jian `cause is lighter, better choice for duel, definitely. :)
Recently , due to my KUDK practice /we use dao/katana type of swords/ I realized, that it can be as fast as rapier and could be used for straight thrusts as well.
In addition trained forms are shorter than in TJ, and easier to learn and train on both hands .
It is important, `cause you may develop both sides in harmony.
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby Bob on Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:16 am

Dao & Jian go far beyond their function as a weapon. There is some serious scholarship out there on the Dao and Jian - footnotes are rich -

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/10.781 ... 9b2d408cd7

Well, how'd you become king, then?” Swords in Early Medieval China
Author(s): Robert Joe Cutter
Source: Journal of the American Oriental Society , Vol. 132, No. 4 (October-December
2012), pp. 523-538
Published by: American Oriental Society
Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/ja ... 132.4.0523


From pp. 526 -528

Ancient and fugitive heirlooms like the nine tripod cauldrons and the Yellow River chart
were apotheoses of early Chinese royal regalia. But less shadowy objects, more akin to
those possessed by royalty even now, were also symbols of power and authority. Among
these were silk cords (zushou 組綬) and jade ornaments (pei 佩) worn at the waist, seals
(xi) 璽), sabers (dao 刀), and swords (jian 劍). 13 The possession of these symbolic objects was
not limited to the Zhou kings or to the emperors of imperial China. Subordinate rulers and
ministers of state also possessed such signs of status, although theirs differed in number and
style from those of the ruler. 14 The types of regalia remained rather consistent over time,
with specific objects varying in design. 15

Sabers and swords, many bearing names, are among the earliest royal possessions
recorded in old texts. In addition to a Yellow River chart, one of the other items on display at
the funeral of King Cheng was a red knife or saber. 16 The Han dynasty commentator Zheng
Xuan 鄭玄 (127–200) thought that this must have been an artifact from the time of conquest
of the last ruler of the Shang dynasty circa 1045 b.c.e. by King Cheng’s father King Wu 武
王 (r. 1049/45–1043 b.c.e.). 17 Later, the Yue jue shu 越絕書 says that King Goujian 句踐
(r. 496–465 b.c.e.) of Yue possessed five precious swords (bao jian 寶劍) that were known
throughout the subcelestial realm. 18 In this anecdote the swords are evaluated by the sword
connoisseur Xue Zhu 薛燭, who dismissively pronounces the first ones shown to him as
“not precious swords.” The sword named Chunjun 純鈞, however, was a different matter.
The king tells Xue that someone has appraised this sword as worth two districts with markets,
a thousand fine horses, and two towns of a thousand households each and asks if that is appropriate.

Xue Zhu replied, “No. At the time they made this sword, the mountain Chijin split open and
yielded tin; the creek Ruoye dried up and yielded copper.

it. 22 Ouye relied on his natural acuity and genius, expended all of his skill and artistry, and made
three swords of the larger type and two of the smaller. The first was called Zhanlu, the second
was called Chunjun, the third was called Shengxie, the fourth was called Yuchang, and the fifth
was called Juque. . . . Now the mountain Chijin is already sealed, Ruoye creek is too deep to
fathom, the many deities do not descend, and as for Master Ouye, he is dead. Even if you had a
city-full of gold and pearls and jade enough to stay the Yellow River, you still could not obtain
this singular object. Two districts with markets, a thousand fine horses, two towns of a thousand
households each—how are these worth mentioning?
薛燭對曰:「不可。當造此劍之時赤堇之山破而出錫,若耶之溪涸而出銅,雨師掃灑,
雷公擊橐,蛟龍捧鑪,天帝裝炭;太一下觀,天精下之。歐冶乃因天之精神,悉其伎
巧,造為大刑三、小刑二:一曰湛盧,二曰純鈞,三曰勝邪,四曰魚腸,五曰巨闕⋯今赤
堇之山已合,若耶溪深而不測.群神不下,歐冶子即死.雖復傾城量金,珠玉竭河,猶
不能得此一物,有市之鄉二、駿馬千疋、千戶之都二,何足言哉!23

This description depicts the creation of the Chunjun sword as an act requiring a combination of consummate human skill
and divine intervention, a trope common to early accounts of the manufacture of notable blades.

In fact, Yue really was known for its fine swords. 24 A stunning bronze sword of complex structure, with an inscription explicitly identifying King
Goujian as its owner, was excavated from a Chu 楚 tomb near Jiangling 江陵 in Hubei province in 1965, and is one of the chief treasures of the Hubei Provincial Museum. 25

19 Rain Master swept and sprinkled, the Lord of Thunder pumped the bellows;
20 a jiao dragon held the furnace, the Celestial Thearch stoked it with charcoal;
Great Unity descended to watch,21 the celestial essence came down to
13. On the importance of swords in the ancient southern kingdoms of Wu 吳 and Yue 越, see Chapin, “Toward
the Study of the Sword as Dynastic Talisman,” 27; Milburn, “The Weapons of Kings,” 423–37. Ching (“Son of
Heaven,” 3, 25) also mentions swords and seals as regalia items. On swords as regalia in Europe, see the beautiful
catalogue of the 2011 exhibit of swords at the Cluny Museum: L’Épée: Usages, mythes et symboles, ed. Almudena
Blasco et al. (Paris: Grandpalais, 2011), 53–83.
14. In 109 b.c.e., for example, after the king of Dian 滇 surrendered to Han forces, Emperor Wu of Han 漢武帝
(r. 140–87 b.c.e.) had seals symbolizing his kingship presented to him; Sima Qian 司馬遷 (ca. 145–ca. 86 b.c.e.),
Shi ji 史記 (Beijing: Zhonghua shuju, 1959), 116.2997. See also Burton Watson, tr., Records of the Grand Historian: Han Dynasty II, rev. ed. (Hong Kong: The Chinese Univ. of Hong Kong Research Centre for Translation and
Columbia Univ. Press, 1993), 258. For a photograph of a seal of the king of Dian from about that time, see Michèle
Pirazzoli–t’Serstevens, The Han Dynasty, tr. Janet Seligman (New York: Rizzoli, 1982), 86.
15. Du You 杜佑 (734–812), Tong dian 通典, ed. Wang Wenjin 王文錦 et al. (Beijing: Zhonghua shuju, 1988),
63.1751–70.
16. This seems likely to have been a weapon made of copper. See Donald B. Wagner, Iron & Steel in Ancient
China, rev. ed. (Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1996), 99. See also Chapin, “Toward the Study of the Sword as Dynastic Talisman,” 39–40; Ching, “Son of Heaven,” 20.
17. Shang shu zheng yi, 18.11b, 12b.
18. A still later story in the Shi yi ji 拾遺記, a work attributed to Wang Jia 王嘉 (d. before 393 c.e.), says Goujian had eight swords made; Wang Zinian Shi yi ji 王子年拾遺記, in Han Wei congshu, 732. For translations of the
Shi yi ji entry, see Lawrence Chapin Foster, “The Shih–i chi and Its Relationship to the Genre Known as Chih–kuai
hsiao–shuo” (Ph.D. diss., Univ. of Washington, 1974), 303; Chapin, “Toward the Study of the Sword as Dynastic
Talisman,” 2–5 (and 49–50 on the discrepancy in numbers). On the Shi yi ji, see Robert Ford Campany, Strange
Writing: Anomaly Accounts in Early Medieval China (Albany: State Univ. of New York Press, 1996), 64–67.
19. Both of these places were south of Shaoxing 紹興 in modern Zhejiang province. Tin and copper, of course,
are the constituent elements of bronze.
20. These deities appear together, for example, in the poem “Yuan you” 遠遊 [Far Roaming] of the Chu ci 楚
辭, where we read, in Paul W. Kroll’s translation, “On the left the Rain Master was bid to attend me on the path—/
To the right the Lord of Thunder served as my paladin” (Paul W. Kroll, “On ‘Far Roaming,’” JAOS 16 [1996], 662).
See Hong Xingzu 洪興祖 (1090–1155), ed., Chu ci bu zhu 楚辭補注, 5.8b, in Sbby.
21. Celestial Thearch (Tiandi 天帝) appears in a variety of texts from different periods as a supreme god resident
in the heavens. Great Unity (Taiyi 太一) here refers to the “supreme stellar deity . . . who resides in the large reddish
Last edited by Bob on Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby origami_itto on Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:42 am

Nice post, Bob.

There's a sort of almost primal fascination with the power and symbolism of the straight sword. One might be tempted to even consider it due to the phallic shape and ability to kill. It unites our two most basic, reptile brain desires in one shiny, ornamented package. It's no wonder that mastery is synonymous with power and Dominion.

There's definitely the argument to be made, as a martial artist, for the particular skills developed and required of jianfa. Much more so than any direct practical use of the weapon in any sort of context outside of controlled sparring between fellow enthusiasts. But I think when you get down to it, the underlying driving motivation for the particular weapon is all of the ways it can be used.

You can just wave a jian around in more ways than a dao, which makes for a more mentally and physically stimulating practice. More subtlety in application and more skills to master.

Rather than consider the direct use of the object or even empty hand movement, I consider what more cumulatively the practice cultivates in my every day extemporaneous being.

So I'm working on the full range, cudgel, dao, dadao, jian, staff, kwandao, spear maybe someday. They're all worthy death dicks to wave around.
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby Bob on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:09 am

Another way to look at it, if one is interested in Yin/Yang theory is:

Dao (saber) - Great Yang, Lesser Yin --> Refinement --> Jian (sword) - Greater Yin, Lesser Yang

Gun (staff) Greater Yang, Lesser Yin --> Refinement --> Qiang (spear) - Greater Yin, Lesser Yang

No weapon in itself is superior but rather quite dependent on the practitioner.

It may be the bias of my experience but generally speaking new students were almost always started on the dao/gun before learn jian/qiang - starts out with larger movements to help shape the shen fa and then smaller movements to refine the skill set - I don't recall ever using breath relationships with the dao/gun but with the jian and especially the qiang, intentional breath control i.e. hen ha breathing especially in the qiang training (not in the jian) was introduced.
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby Wanderingdragon on Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:33 pm

[quote="wayne hansen"][quote="Wanderingdragon"]Just complete Misunderstanding of Jianfa . Born of weak or non existant empty hand mastery.[/quote]

Who are you referring to there[/quote]


Anyone Questioning the efficacy and usage and body method of the weapon
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:35 pm

Ok
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:26 pm

Tom wrote:
Bhassler wrote: It all comes down to the context you expect to be using your art in.


Exactly. I don't expect to be shoulder-to-shoulder with infantry facing opposing armies. The only thing I've sliced with saber from horseback are plastic water jugs.

I look for the biomechanics and attributes emerging from practicing with different kinds of (traditional) weapons. Long spear/pole is excellent for whole-body mingmen-driven coordination and power. Saber helps with the strengthening of waist (rotation of spine) and "soft bracing" (borrowing from Stuart McGill).

In weapons training for actual usage as weapons, I look to gun, knife and stick.

Yes, the biomechanics are something that training with weapons can help with a lot. What is this "soft bracing"?

Training Sabre isn't much different than training stick, one of the reasons that I prefer it over the Jian.
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Re: Dao versus Jian

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:32 pm

johnwang wrote:The advantage of Dao vs. Jian is you can use your hand (or your body) to push on the back of Dao to add more power on the cut. You can't do that with the sword.

That is a huge advantage and the one (besides Dao being less fragile) that my Master often cites as being his reason to favour it over the Dao. Staff (and ever spear) and Dao have a lot of cross-over. Much more so than Jian.
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