New Taiji teaching method

[windwalker]

The soft and hard question often asked about taiji in relationship to yin & yang. Is really one about transitions and change. Water often used as a metaphor taken as an example to follow.

If one jumps off a high bridge and hits the water the water will feel very hard， tending to break things.

The same water if one happens to be swimming in it and stop swimming they will drown. The water able to absorb the body within it.

The water itself does not change, what is changing is the transition rate. This is very different then if one was to speak about water in the form of steam or ice.

[charles]

There was a story a while back that he had some knee problems, but I don't know if that's true. And, I don't think it's always possible to connect an injury to one specific cause. You can trip on stairs, in the bathtub, or on a rug, and sustain an injury. It could also simply be age related. But, I think it's valid to question whether what he's doing is good for the body, and why. Studies need to be done on "fa jin" separately.

CXW told me that he was practicing on ice and one leg suddenly slid. It tore the meniscus of one knee. (My training partner is a radiologist and was asked by him to look at the X-rays that he just happened to have with him at the time.) She explained to him, demonstrating on a lemon, what the repair surgery involved. He had the surgery done the following summer in San Diego, recovered quickly and doesn't seem to have had any additional knee issues.

It is pretty well known that all-out, give-it-everything fa jin is hard on the body, particularly as one ages. Many aging Chen practitioners, for example, back-off of or avoid a lot of that. Feng Ziqiang, for example, eliminated the heavy foot stomps for similar reasons and his displays of fa jin became softer the older he got. After an all-out fa jin demonstration, CXW, then in his early 50's, would spend a couple of days recovering from the demonstration. In traditional verbiage, it expends qi at an age where one ought to start conserving qi. Obviously, it depends on the individual, but that's the general trend. Studies don't really need to be done: the feelings are pretty obvious and they ain't good.

[Steve James]

It is pretty well known that all-out, give-it-everything fa jin is hard on the body, particularly as one ages. Many aging Chen practitioners, for example, back-off of or avoid a lot of that.

Understood, but everybody ages, and we've all seen examples of the elderly doing exercises that younger people can't do. My point is that "fa jin,"if it is damaging to an elderly person is probably damaging to younger ones. The question is why do it? If it is necessary, then wouldn't it be better to find a safe way to do it into old age --when one might need it even more than when one was young?

If the goal is martial usage, either fa jin is necessary or not. One has to ask what the necessity of the parts of the art without fajin? Are they primarily for martial use? If they are not, does that mean they exist for some other reason? Health, qi-cultivation, spiritual reasons? It seems logical that they are better for health (i.e., not inevitably damaging) and can be continued into old age.

Um, I'm not trying to discourage people doing fa jin, btw.

[charles]

My point is that "fa jin,"if it is damaging to an elderly person is probably damaging to younger ones.

To some extent it depends upon the individual. Some things aren't harmful to younger people that often are for older people. Older people often lose strength, stamina and flexibility.

The question is why do it? If it is necessary, then wouldn't it be better to find a safe way to do it into old age --when one might need it even more than when one was young?

I'm not an expert in aging and its effects on the body. But, there are some things that are pretty obvious to most people. One is that some things one did when one was younger that weren't detrimental are much more difficult and can be detrimental when one is older. Older people often injure more easily and heal more slowly, generally.

If the goal is martial usage, either fa jin is necessary or not.

What I've been taught and experienced is that there are two sides to a coin. On one side, one has "soft" skills, such as being compliant, control, listening, etc. On the other side, one has "hard" skills, such as punching, kicking, etc. Some individual practitioners are better at or more focused on one side of the coin than the other, or simply prefer one to the other. If one has very well developed "soft" skills, then the hard skills, such as fa jin, are "less" necessary. If one doesn't have well developed soft skills, then "hard" skills are an effective alternative. They aren't the same skills, though there is overlap.

I met one Yang style practitioner who had incredible soft skills. He viewed fa jin as low-level skill, arguing that if he could completely control an opponent, why would he bother hitting him? He could completely control an opponent, particularly non-compliant one's from other martial arts. I've met a Chen practitioner who could do the same. He could also hit like a ton of bricks, if he wanted to. If you have skills in both, it gives you options from which to choose. Otherwise, you use what skills you have be they hard or soft.

One has to ask what the necessity of the parts of the art without fajin? Are they primarily for martial use? If they are not, does that mean they exist for some other reason? Health, qi-cultivation, spiritual reasons? It seems logical that they are better for health (i.e., not inevitably damaging) and can be continued into old age.

See above. Even with fa jin, the idea isn't to hit an immovable opponent so hard that he or she shatters into pieces. It is preceded by controlling the opponent. Once you have that control, you chose how much force to use, a little or a lot. If you can't generate a large force (i.e. fa jin), that isn't an option. You can still accomplish a desirable result with less/small force.

People who are skilled with the "soft" side of the coin control an opponent in such a way as to manipulate the opponent into creating his or her own internal imbalances and tensions. The "kind" skilled practitioner then lets the opponent release those in a way or direction that works against the opponent, such as falling over, bouncing away, jumping back, etc. Another not-so-kind approach is to allow no direction of release, in which case the opponent injures him or herself - often breaking or dislocating something.

[johnwang]

If the goal is martial usage, either fa jin is necessary or not.

When you are fighting against multiple opponents, you can't use joint locking, ground skill, push, throw. You may only have 1 chance to deal with each individual opponent. If you can't knock down your opponent with just 1 punch, you may not have chance to punch him again. When all your opponents attack you at the same time, the fight is over.

Soft is used in defense. Hard is used in offense. You need offense to finish a fight.

[Steve James]

Só, Charles, in order to be proficient in Chen style, is it necessary to be able to fa Jin?
John, does Chang Taiji have fa jin?

[charles]

Só, Charles, in order to be proficient in Chen style, is it necessary to be able to fa Jin?
John, does Chang Taiji have fa jin?

"Fa jin" is simply an expression of ("refined") force. That "expression" doesn't have to be explosive (bao fa li or bao fa jin).

Most martial arts have fa jin - regardless of how in that style they name it - some are "explosive" some not.

Having more tools, more options, can expand one's choices. On the other hand, amongst competitive gun people there is the expression, "Beware the one-gun man". That is, beware the expert with one gun, rather than the generalist who's only okay on a wide variety of firearms. I don't think there are black and white answers to the questions you are asking. It depends on the individual, their skills and their situations.

[johnwang]

John, does Chang Taiji have fa jin?

The Chang Taiji came from the Yang Taiji. It doesn't have Fajin (if Fajin = compress and release).

[Steve James]

Charles, frankly, I'd say that there's nothing black or white in tcc. The problem is when it leads to contradictions, especially for beginners and potential beginners. I asked you and John two questions that should be resolved for beginners who want to gain martial skill (self defense) and those who want to improve or maintain their health. What do they need?

I think you've given one answer already. Fa jin is not necessary for everyone. And like any other power/jin or power source, it may not be sufficient. That's true of any technique. But, then how do we answer John? Yeah, I understand that every martial art has "fa jin," but ... it seems that whenever YCF style comes up, the accepted idea is that his style lacked the "cannons" etc. Yet, he was apparently at least a good martial artist. Maybe he didn't need them, and their elimination made his art better "for health, too."

Sometimes, it's also been claimed that (all) tcc "has no leg skills." But, there is a Chang tcc. Hence my question to John. What is his version of fa jin? There doesn't need to be an argument, nor to drop the subject because it's unanswerable. My opinion is that "leg skills" can be incorporated into any tcc that aspires to be usable for self defense. They're not necessary either. But, as you say, it's an individual thing. I'd love to hear John's explanation of how the movements in the video of GM Chang work.

[johnwang]

I'd love to hear John's explanation of how the movements in the video of GM Chang work.

The 1st move of "arm raising" has been shown in previous post.

The 2nd move of "wide horse parting mane" is shown in this clip at 0.7. Please notice the arm is moving "above" your opponent's arm. This is different from the "diagonal fly" that your arm is moving "below" your opponent's arm (I can't find short clip for this).



The 3rd move of "hand playing lute" is shown in this clip. You can use one hand to control the wrist and another hand to control the elbow. You can also use both hands to control the elbow and use your chest to control the hand.

[Steve James]

The "Raise Hand" clip 3 is pretty familiar. I didn't see Part Wild Horse's Mane in the second one, but it's clear in clip 1.
Would you call them examples of fa jin?

[johnwang]

The "Raise Hand" clip 3 is pretty familiar. I didn't see Part Wild Horse's Mane in the second one, but it's clear in clip 1.
Would you call them examples of fa jin?

The term "Fajin" is not used in the wrestling art. Push is not throw.

The striking art uses (Fajin) exponential force generation.



The wrestling art uses linear force generation,



and constant force generation.

[windwalker]

John, does Chang Taiji have fa jin?

The Chang Taiji came from the Yang Taiji. It doesn't have Fajin (if Fajin = compress and release).

Yang style does have fa-jin just not shown or practiced in the way that's associated with chen.
the "compress/release" method as demoed is to slow to really use...looks good for demos

S-mantis has similar power generation, that is usable


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GmFMo0Av8I

[Bob]

Fu Zhongwen (Yang Chengfu lineage) Fa jin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flJtKBTlKL8

Fu Zhong Wen, 1987, at age 85, performing Yang Family Tai Chi Fa Jin drills. Even at this advanced age he still demonstrates superior power and speed to players 60 years younger. These training methods have been handed down through 5 generations of the Yang Family.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hykILWPx7OM

Wonderful short clip of great Taiji Grand Master Fu Zhong Wen at 90 years old demonstrating Wild Horse Ruffles Mane Fa Jin drills.. Enjoy and share ..D



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-dEvSfYIWI

Fu Zhong Wen, 1987, at age 85, performing Yang Family Tai Chi Spear with Fa Jin movements. These training methods have been handed down through 5 generations of the Yang Family.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zobBXaugS1c

Beautiful short clip featuring Yang Family Tai Chi spear instruction with Damon Bramich 6th generation Yang Family...
The clip covers all 3 basic drills in real time enjoy share subscribe..

[windwalker]

Fu Zhongwen (Yang Chengfu lineage) Fa jin

Fu Zhong Wen, 1987, at age 85, performing Yang Family Tai Chi Fa Jin drills. Even at this advanced age he still demonstrates superior power and speed to players 60 years younger. These training methods have been handed down through 5 generations of the Yang Family.

By what means is this known, what is it shown in the clips, that would lead one to
this conclusion.

One the other hand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O63WmYveRU

shows methods trained, with results when used