the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

I think this is a good place to start:

https://www.plumpub.com/sales/thoughts/ ... ssays.html

The Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts - 5000 years
by Professor Kang Ge-Wu

The first ! A complete historical reference for Chinese Martial Arts. This book is written by one of the world's leading experts on Wushu. Professor Kang Gewu of the Wushu Research Institute in Beijing has personally traveled throughout China gathering archeological data and oral histories on this valuable cultural treasure that is Martial Arts.

This book is a vital text for anyone interested in the origins of such diverse styles as T'ai Ch'i, Shaolin, ancient wrestling and Qi Gong. It offers a time-line that covers thousands of years of significant developments in the long history of Martial Arts. Styles and masters are included by the dozens. The product of years of research and study. Not to be missed!

I searched 康戈武 in Google Scholar, and find 221 articles related to him (Kāng gēwu) but no such book is found in Chinese. Is this book written by him in English?

In any case, the Spring and Autumn period was a period in Chinese history from approximately 771 to 476 BC. The Ancient Classics of China only dated back to Western Zhou period (1046 – 771 BC), and the most important work is the Book of Changes with the Yin Yang binary system that changes almost everything including martial arts, such as passive and active muscle actions.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were asking for - I am unaware of a Chinese source.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Th ... jJAAAACAAJ

For my own sources I am just now looking into:

https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Martial- ... 318&sr=1-1

Chinese Martial Arts: From Antiquity to the Twenty-First Century Hardcover – December 5, 2011
by Peter A. Lorge (Author)

n the global world of the twenty-first century, martial arts are practiced for self-defense and sporting purposes only. However, for thousands of years, they were a central feature of military practice in China and essential for the smooth functioning of society. Individuals who were adept in using weapons were highly regarded, not simply as warriors but also as tacticians and performers. This book, which opens with an intriguing account of the very first female martial artist, charts the history of combat and fighting techniques in China from the Bronze Age to the present. This broad panorama affords fascinating glimpses into the transformation of martial skills, techniques, and weaponry against the background of Chinese history, the rise and fall of empires, their governments, and their armies. Quotations from literature and poetry, and the stories of individual warriors, infuse the narrative, offering personal reflections on prowess in the battlefield and techniques of engagement. This is an engaging and readable introduction to the authentic history of Chinese martial arts.

About the Author
Peter A. Lorge is a Senior Lecturer of History at Vanderbilt University, Tennessee. He is the author of War, Politics and Society in Early Modern China, 900-1795 (2005) and The Asian Military Revolution: From Gunpowder to the Bomb (Cambridge, 2008).

Not sure about this one - chime in if anyone has read this text below and has an opinion

https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Martial- ... -1-catcorr

Chinese Martial Arts: A Historical Outline Paperback – February 13, 2017
by David A Ross (Author)

Did Buddhist monks and Daoist priests really practice martial arts? Is the practice of Chinese martial arts religious? What are the White Lotus Sect and the Heaven and Earth Society? Did martial artists really think they could resist bullets using their internal power? What is the “internal school” of martial arts? These and many more questions are addressed and potentially answered by the new volume “Chinese Martial Arts, A Historical Outline”. This is the first work of its kind in the English language. Beginning with the earliest historical records regarding the practice of martial arts, it progressively outlines the development of martial arts within the larger context of Chinese society. In doing so, it presents the many important events, issues and challenges which have shaped the traditions we now practice. Particular attention is paid to the evolution of the concept of using “Qi” in the martial arts, the doomed Boxer Uprising, and developments during the Republican era. Designed to be an outline rather than an exhaustive work on any one particular issue, “Chinese Martial Arts” is 226 pages with over 340 footnotes and an extensive bibliography. Destined to change the way martial artists perceive and understand what they practice. Table of Contents includes “MILITARY METHODS” “THE FOUR STAFF OCCUPATIONS” “CONFLICT AND VIOLENCE” “THE WHITE LOTUS SECT” “THE HEAVEN AND EARTH SOCIETY” “THE TAIPING CIVIL WAR” “THE BOXER UPRISING” “NEI JIA QUAN” “NEW CULTURE MOVEMENT” “NATIONAL ARTS” and “SHAOLIN LEGENDS”.

Biography
David A Ross is an author, blogger, educator and consultant. He graduated from Elliott School of International Affairs with a graduate degree in Chinese history and speaks three dialects of Chinese. He is a published author with over fifty internationally published articles and several book titles.

David A Ross is also a martial arts instructor who has spent decades developing a holistic martial arts education, combining the best martial arts with his own, unique “pillars of truth” world view which has helped thousands of people to achieve their personal goals and live their dreams. The beauty of his vision is that it is NOT just for those who want to compete or be a champion; he has proven time and time again that REAL MARTIAL ARTS are for everyone and everyone benefits. People travel from across the country to train with Sifu Ross when he offers his seminars. In fact, they’ve come from other countries just to learn his secrets. They pay TOP DOLLAR for that training. He is in such high demand, he can’t even do private sessions anymore.

that book atleast is not too top dollars

It is a bit strange how Zen (Chan) spread from China to Japan, yet in Japan (where Zen is well-established), we do not hear of Yijinjing or Xisuijing (but we do see miniaturized Bodhidharmas all over). Some questions from me:

- Were Yijinjing and Xisuijing part of Chan? If so, when were they taught (or not)?
- What parts of Chan/Zen were taught when transmitting it to other temples/countries?
- What Zen sect does Shaolin belong to? (How do they practice the meditation part, e.g. with koans? Or wall-staring?)

It is unheard of for Zen monks to practice martial arts as part of their practice in Japan.
On the other hand, in Korea there is a martial art uncreatively called "Seonmudo" (which means, 'Zen martial arts') that the monks seem to practice. It would be quite interesting to learn more about it - but I would be very surprised if they have an yijinjing set, etc. I guess that much of it would have been recreated in the last century, but I hope not.

Scholars are now convinced that Yijinjing is Daoist by nature, Xisuijing might be the same!

There are 4 physiological processes described in Daoism; listed in the order of the changes that the physical body has to undergo: the 'Fluid (sweat) Cleansing Process' （水津经 Shui Jin Jing), the 'Blood Muscle changing Process' （血筋经 Xue Jin Jing), the 'Tendon changing Process' （易筋经 Yi Jin Jing), and the [Bone] 'Marrow Washing Process' (洗髓经 Xi Sui Jing).

They’re all one part of the whole. There’s no one way to go about causing these changes. Any physical endeavor done repetitively, over time, will cause these changes to happen, but they will be specific to that work/job. Daoists recognized the physical phenomena, divided it into stages, and named them in order to systematize it and develop practices to streamline the process.

.

Hey taiwandeutscher - I'd love to hear more about Yijinjing's Daoist origins! Might make sense - after all, I've never seen anything similar in Zen temples before.

D_Glenn - I didn't know about the shuijinjing and xuejinjing. Another set of 3 that I learned about was yigujing (bone changing), yijinjing, and xisuijing. I thought this was associated with the jing to qi, qi to shen, shen returning to nothing 3 stages in Daoism. Is the set of 4 a different dichotomy maybe?

The terms describe a physiological process but in the ordinary person small micro damage to the tissues is occurring at the same rate as the building up of strength, so even though it’s strong it’s inherently weak. So in the goal of becoming a true person one is using no outside weights, just movements in air and internal work (neidan). So I believe it corresponds with 1 gathering/ storing 2 refining jing to qi, 3 qi to shen 4 shen returning to the void (marrow of the brain overflowing and returning to the marrow of the bones).

.

That makes sense - the gathering jing part does seem to be unstated in the 3 levels. But what kind of training is shuijinjing and xuejinjing? (Well, to be honest, I don't know what they do for xusuijing, either, so I would love to hear your description of that one, too!)

We (ysb) try to do all 4 inside of our Zz and Xing Zhuang (circle turning). We use a different type of zz where we use ‘bao Zhang’ (hold extended), and combined with a lot of intention we can eventually get to the point where we can get a whole body sweat (with beads of sweat forming on the forehead) in 30 seconds. This is Shui jin jing (trading out turbid fluids for clean fluids. This type of intense holding also increases vascularity in the body, opens micro capillaries, and developing the Dantian increases the inferior vena cava’s capacity for dilation, which allows for a greater volume of blood to filter into the kidneys and reach the outer layer of the kidney and better pick up the EPO hormone. So increasing the capacity for total blood volume and increasing actual blood volume is Xue Jin Jing.
The most difficult thing about Bao Zhang is that you’re using your own muscles to work against the tensile strength of your tendons, but very gradually and over a much longer period of time, the tendons will become longer and stronger- yi jin jing.
And stronger, and held under tension, the tendons and ligaments attach to the ends of bones and are flexing the bones which need to become stronger, which if all the internal mental aspects of Zz have been followed then they should be able to stop and possibly increase the ever shrinking (old age) marrow within the bones.

Some other martial arts people use a much more rigorous method of doing this which involves weights, hitting yourself with wires etc. but we consider it achieving it from the outside in. Where our method is from the inside to out.

In YSB, Zhan Zhuang is better/ required for developing these 4, where XZ (circle walking/ turning) is better/required for developing the internal aspect. Doing changes (forms) is how you shape and condition everything (the movements in the different animal systems will develop and change the body into completely different body types). Single striking drills using Fali are another aspect of both the 4 processes and the internal ‘states’ achieved through MCO in the circle turning.
These are the four pillars upon which you can build a roof or a floor: 1 standing 2 turning 3 single striking practice (dan lian) and 4 changes

.

edededed wrote:It is a bit strange how Zen (Chan) spread from China to Japan, yet in Japan (where Zen is well-established), we do not hear of Yijinjing or Xisuijing (but we do see miniaturized Bodhidharmas all over). Some questions from me:

- Were Yijinjing and Xisuijing part of Chan? If so, when were they taught (or not)?
- What parts of Chan/Zen were taught when transmitting it to other temples/countries?
- What Zen sect does Shaolin belong to? (How do they practice the meditation part, e.g. with koans? Or wall-staring?)

It is unheard of for Zen monks to practice martial arts as part of their practice in Japan.
On the other hand, in Korea there is a martial art uncreatively called "Seonmudo" (which means, 'Zen martial arts') that the monks seem to practice. It would be quite interesting to learn more about it - but I would be very surprised if they have an yijinjing set, etc. I guess that much of it would have been recreated in the last century, but I hope not.

You make a good point. The association of the Yijin jing to Shaolin is questioned.

The legendary account springs from two prefaces which accompany the Yijin Jing. One of these prefaces purports to be written by the general Li Jing in 628 during the Tang Dynasty, while the other purports to be written by the general Niu Gao, an officer of the Song Dynasty General Yue Fei. However, there are several inaccuracies and inconsistencies in these forewords that cast doubt on the authenticity of Bodhidharma's authorship of the Yijin Jing.

It was specifically the foreword by Li Jing by which Tang Hao traced the attribution of Shaolin Kung Fu to Bodhidharma.[1] Li Jing's foreword refers to "the tenth year of the Taihe period of Emperor Xiaoming of Northern Wei."[2] The Taihe reign period did not occur under Emperor Xiaoming but under Emperor Xiaowen and, in its tenth year (487 CE), the Shaolin temple did not yet exist according to the Jiaqing Chongxiu Yitongzhi, itself an updated compilation of earlier records, which states that the Shaolin temple was built in the twentieth year of the Taihe era (497 CE).[3] Li Jing's foreword also claims that he received the manual containing the exercises from the "Bushy Bearded Hero" (虬髯客, Qiuran ke), a popular fictional character from a Tang Dynasty story of the same name by Du Guangting (850-933).[4][5]

Niu Gao's foreword mentions the Qinzhong temple, which wasn't erected until 20 years after the date he claims to be writing. He also claims to be illiterate. Dictation could resolve the question of how an illiterate could write a foreword, but it is almost certain that a general of Niu Gao's stature was not illiterate. Thus during the 18th century, the scholar Ling Tingkan concluded in a sarcastic fashion that the author of the Yijin Jing must have been an "ignorant" and a "master" all at the same time (i.e., Tingkan states that the author must have been an "ignorant village master").

The text of the Yijin Jing was probably composed by the Taoist priest Zining writing in 1624.[6][7] The earliest surviving edition of the Yijin Jing was dated by Ryuchi Matsuda to 1827. In the course of his research, Matsuda found no mention of—let alone attribution to—Bodhidharma in any of the numerous texts written about the Shaolin martial arts[8] before the 19th century.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yijin_Jing

taiwandeutscher wrote:Scholars are now convinced that Yijinjing is Daoist by nature, Xisuijing might be the same!

May be you can do a quick review of this article:

http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/ ... 202303.pdf

Thanks D_Glenn, very illuminating! I do like how the theory and practice matches up very well. Practicing zhanzhuang that way is definitely different, and may be worth the separation from circle walking.

Robert: Interesting stuff. (Incidentally, Matsuda Ryuichi's name seems to cause CMA people in Japan to laugh for some reason, but I hope that he was a good researcher at least!)

Yeung wrote:

taiwandeutscher wrote:Scholars are now convinced that Yijinjing is Daoist by nature, Xisuijing might be the same!

May be you can do a quick review of this article:

http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/ ... 202303.pdf

Oh, interesting, thanks, Yeung, scrolled thru it quickly (evaluation of my university department keeps me totally busy right now), seems to make clear, Yijinjing and Xisuijing have nothing to do with Shaolin/Buddhism.

Ed, my source was Kai Filipiak, alas in German. But I think, some research is even noted in Wiki, lol!