Compression Yeilding

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Compression Yeilding

Postby Walk the Torque on Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:29 pm

Just a quick question that has been bouncing around my head for a while.

Has anyone looked into yielding to an incoming force i.e. a push (during push hands) by actively compressing/squeezing inward the torso in direct harmony with the incoming force?

this sounds like such a basic question that I'm embarrassed to ask it but my reason for doing so is that many folks i've encountered consider yielding to be a function of the frame and not so much the compressible properties of the body. Or if they do, they consider this property to be one that should not be interfered with, but allowed to take place by letting either gravity and relaxation or the opponent's force "work its magic".

Not that there is only one way to go about any of this, but what are peoples thoughts on the matter.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby cloudz on Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:50 am

Alright Konn,

I tend to use the terminology of both yielding and neutralization, but I see yielding as a subset of neutralizing.

Yielding for me has come to mean a particular kind of neutralizing. Were one moves with, at contact. It's effectively taking things out of the way, that you can take out of the way; so yielding is a nutralization method, but I think others can be described too. Rotation for example is not taking something away but altering the angle and trajectory; and there is a different kind of effect.

What you are describing sound more to be like absorbing the force directly into oneself - not opposing with force, but taking the force in and down, say, whilst maintaining structure. This kind of thing can be combined with other kinds of methods.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:02 am

Yes I do exactly that, but with a caveat. An opponent can use that compression to throw you out if you aren't careful.

Essentially if I 'control' the compression then I can control the release and direct the energy from it where I like. If I let the opponent compress me, then they control the release and can aim it out my weak lines.

I prefer follow or stick/adhere/join/follow to yield.
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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby cloudz on Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:22 am

I suppose it can depend exactly what people mean by 'compress' - I wouldn't really let anyone compress my structure as such.
I have practiced a fair bit to not have any usable reaction to a release of force that has been fed that I have otherwise absorbed.

Usually if you react adversely (lose balance) when they let go, you might be bracing for example.
but there are certainly methods where you remain stable through absorbing and then the retraction of that force.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:51 am

It's not precisely what I understand as 'my' reaction that's the danger. i.e. it's not the same as you get when you push back against an incoming push that is quickly removed or becomes a pull.

Let's say I'm the aggressor, I push (an) you into your back foot so you're uncomfortable, then a little horizontally past that to aim you up and back, then I release the compression and you spring back/expand naturally. The energy releases in a force directed up and to the rear which I can add to by pushing (in a conventional sense).

Maybe nothing happens, maybe the root gets broke, maybe the opponent hops back, maybe they crumble and collapse before the release.

Using it defensively gets more complicated.
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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby cloudz on Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:03 am

not sure where you're going with that, I might have to read and re read it a few times to follow.

what you said before though is something i think I recognise.

In a basic feeding drill, you push into me.
from there if i absorb the force and allow you to compress me/ my structure against the ground, then sure any way i try to come back from that can be felt and used against me.

what I was talking about before is in the same scenario (drill), sometimes as part of receiving that force, there maybe bracing or some kind of pushing back also. When that happens, taking that force away quickly results in an undesirable reaction.

Both these scenarios I want the body condition/ mechanics to avoid; a stable and 'free' structure under external load (incoming force).
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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby johnwang on Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:37 am

Walk the Torque wrote:Has anyone looked into yielding to an incoming force i.e. a push (during push hands) by actively compressing/squeezing inward the torso in direct harmony with the incoming force?

- In striking art, it's difficult to yield a punch to the face.
- In wrestling art, yielding is not enough. You may need to use stealing step, spin your body, move yourself out of your opponent's attacking path, and lead him into the emptiness.

In other words, footwork should be added into the yielding.

Example of stealing step.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby everything on Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:53 pm

It's not really about compression. I know you probably won't agree. This is why I say no one interested in internal believes in internal. The stories are always "thrown out". One way I've experienced this in baby level is this. I stood there flat footed with tree hug posture. My partner pushed (albeit not too hard) on my arms. For some reason one side of his hand felt more "substantial". I felt like this pulse of electricity (qi if you like) go from my pushed hand around to my other hand. I didn't use any "force" (this is not concentric or eccentric force, either, sorry not sorry). The push of his hand just basically got "borrowed" and my arm somehow pushed his other hand (again no movement or "force") as if he pushed himself or he pushed a yoga ball against a wall and it rebounded it, so he felt like he pushed himself. BUT not via compression, blah blah blah blah blah, or spinning. I honestly don't know how to explain it unless you buy the electric thing. Think about that. Your brain does a chemical reaction. Electrical signals go to your finger. Your finger moves. We experience it as "instantaneous". This was like his muscle moved. I "felt" his signal. It just sort of "passed through" me and landed on him again. As if his right hand pushed his left hand and I was just some series of synapses connected back to him, completing the circuit. This is what it means by "yielding", "no force", "borrowing", "relax", "do by not doing", and if you ever get past baby level, "throw out". We were both like "hmm that was weird". We talked about what it felt like and we felt like he just pushed himself. I didn't feel anything except a "qi" feeling went around my arms from his contact from right hand around to his contact from left hand. For me this explains the weird push hands experiences I've had where I was inexplicably pushed. It also explains the "thrown out" stories. Only the levels are totally different. Like kindergarten vs. Messi level. HTH, but I know 99.999999% of you won't buy it, want a video, will be in denial, will say it won't apply in real life (for me as a hobbyist, duh, but you ain't throwing McGregor either, let's be honest).
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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby Bao on Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:12 am

Yielding and letting the opponent compress you... hmmm... When you put it that way it looks like “rang” or letting your opponent move free, which is a mistake. Had a few discussions about this lately. “Yield” is actually also a mistake. But I understand what you mean. Maybe it’s better to re-phrase it. Or rather I can give an example of how you can do it.

When you use “lü”, not just the movement in the form, but rather using the principle of lüjin when follow his incoming force, you can use compression, or create a slight tension in waist, lower ribs or scapula. Different methods for what you want to achieve. When you have led the force away with “lü” so it’s gone, you can follow and fill in with “peng.” If you want to release that pressure, or stored energy, you should release it precisely on the moment you switch from lü to peng. The key is to create one smooth movement, with lü into peng, and to continue that smooth continuos movement all of the way from intercepting the force until releasing that “compression” and still all of the way through the action and after he leaves your path. You can accomplish a lot with this switch from lü to peng while releasing stored momentum. Not many would teach the precise method, but if you keep looking for it in videos you could probably sense that it’s used by some of the older teachers or “masters”. It’s is a very fine, subtle version of “fajin”, or “releasing energy”. One of the best. IMHO. 8-)
Last edited by Bao on Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:37 am

Walk the Torque wrote:what are peoples thoughts on the matter.

This is why I don't like the stationary PH. Any MA training without using footwork is bad idea. When a punch comes toward you, if you just move yourself out of the way, you don't even need to yield into it.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:22 am

johnwang wrote:
Walk the Torque wrote:what are peoples thoughts on the matter.

This is why I don't like the stationary PH. Any MA training without using footwork is bad idea. When a punch comes toward you, if you just move yourself out of the way, you don't even need to yield into it.

Moving out of the way is yielding. Disconnecting when you do it is an error.
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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby windwalker on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:59 am

johnwang wrote:
Walk the Torque wrote:what are peoples thoughts on the matter.

This is why I don't like the stationary PH. Any MA training without using footwork is bad idea. When a punch comes toward you, if you just move yourself out of the way, you don't even need to yield into it.


It has its place, but as you've experienced and pointed out many times it can and does
lead to some bad habits and misconceptions.

Maybe more so since its been turned into a type of competition with rule sets
unique to it.

Whats called stationary PH is a good way of developing the inner and outer ability to change and distinguishing
the points that either oneself or another can not change.

Its said the highest skill is one of stillness not having to move, understanding movement within stillness
and stillness within movement. Whats called stationary PH can help to develop this if its used
as such.

Outside of this I would agree
it can and has lead some to some bad conclusions and habits.

Peter Ralston speaks to this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby marvin8 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:05 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:
Walk the Torque wrote:what are peoples thoughts on the matter.

This is why I don't like the stationary PH. Any MA training without using footwork is bad idea. When a punch comes toward you, if you just move yourself out of the way, you don't even need to yield into it.

Moving out of the way is yielding. Disconnecting when you do it is an error.

"MA training without using footwork" is a good idea, at times. Because, this trains one to yield, stick, follow and finish an opponent while staying in range, before an opponent can recover his/her guard:

Image
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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:34 pm

windwalker wrote:Peter Ralston speaks to this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA


I really feel like that could have been put more succinctly, particularly given the user of a translator.
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Re: Compression Yeilding

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:26 pm

marvin8 wrote:"MA training without using footwork" is a good idea,

These 2 clips show that MA training with footwork is a good idea.

Running punch:



Wheeling step:

Last edited by johnwang on Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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