Adhering as a martial sport

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Adhering as a martial sport

Postby Yeung on Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:04 pm

I am trying to promote Adhering as a martial sport, and your comments or question will be very helpful in improving this sport:

The gerund adhering has the connotation of to stick, to join, to follow, and to believe. This is used in the same ways as boxing, wrestling, and grappling. Adhering is a unique development in Chinese Martial Arts in making use of the elastic components of the body to control the opponent which is expressed as the stick and follow techniques in Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguaquan, and Yongchunquan (Wing Chun Kung). The strategy of fight to control provided a safe environment for practitioners to determine who is better. From observation, most practitioners of the mentioned martial arts do not focus on the techniques in entering to adhering, as most of them learned pushing hand or sticking hand from a contacted position. The rules are simple, win by any controlled strike, take down, or submission; no score for trade off, no time limit in a restricted area, and disqualification for avoidance or uncontrolled techniques.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby klonk on Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:31 pm

That sounds fascinating. I'm quite interested in that area of technique, since it provides some unique opportunities in defense. It lets you be a drag upon your opponent's actions. At the same time, you are highly aware of what he is doing. The sense of touch can be more reliable than vision in understanding where the opponent is going.

Will the rules specify that only adhering defense is permitted? I think careful wording would be needed in that case, so that a parry with only momentary contact is not claimed to be stick and follow.

I'm looking forward to seeing what develops! Best wishes with your efforts to promote this.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby klonk on Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:40 pm

A further question about the rules: Will pushing the other fellow so that he falls down count as a point scored?
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:04 pm

Can you make this as simple as:

1. You opponent throws 20 punches at you. you use stick and follow techniques in Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguaquan to deal with it. If none of those 20 punches can land on you, you win that round, otherwise you lose that round.

2. You opponent tries to take you down within 1 minute. you use stick and follow techniques in Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguaquan to deal with it. If he can't take you down within that 1 minute, you win that round, otherwise you lose that round.

3. ...
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby Appledog on Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:25 pm

Yeung wrote:I am trying to promote Adhering as a martial sport, and your comments or question will be very helpful in improving this sport:

The gerund adhering has the connotation of to stick, to join, to follow, and to believe. This is used in the same ways as boxing, wrestling, and grappling. Adhering is a unique development in Chinese Martial Arts in making use of the elastic components of the body to control the opponent which is expressed as the stick and follow techniques in Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguaquan, and Yongchunquan (Wing Chun Kung). The strategy of fight to control provided a safe environment for practitioners to determine who is better. From observation, most practitioners of the mentioned martial arts do not focus on the techniques in entering to adhering, as most of them learned pushing hand or sticking hand from a contacted position. The rules are simple, win by any controlled strike, take down, or submission; no score for trade off, no time limit in a restricted area, and disqualification for avoidance or uncontrolled techniques.



This is a good idea, a step in the right direction, but it's still too open. When I go live with my new thing, I'm going to be promoting a style of push hands competition which is more judo-ized and style-agnostic. There's a grey area in what you have described where an opponent can counter a technique whether it is controlled or not; or an uncontrolled technique can land just as well as a controlled technique. So what I mean by judo-ize is to catalog (mark shapes) of say 8 kinds or 16 kinds of attack and defense on the square and on the circle. This is what I mean by 'judo-ization'. These marks could be graded along various kinds of internal strength so it could be visually obvious who is doing it and who is doing what and the general skill level of the practitioners. You could probably even find a way to factor out judging if the techniques were valid or not so long as they were recognizable. Then it becomes a trivial matter of judging by whether or not a catalogued technique was used, I.E. did he use "snake creeps down" or not? Did he use "Single whip", or not? If he did, it's an acceptable technique, and the winner is the winner. if he didn't, he can receive a demerit (or a warning, whatever you use in this kind of sport).

I'm going to say at the outset this isn't going to be a very popular idea, I think certain people who formerly were known for their push hands skill are not going to be able to pass the grade in this kind of system and you will get loud complaints and turned up noses. But once this kind of thing takes root I think it will eventually take over the current sport practice for the better.
Last edited by Appledog on Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby everything on Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:53 pm

Still have no idea why an existing and super popular format doesn't work for whatever purpose this serves.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby Trick on Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:35 am

sumo style wrestling would be a good option ?
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:58 am

to stick, to join, to follow, and to believe


At the moment of trying to stick, the others would know they have no where to go and would change their movement - A familiar technique of Wing Chun "run your hand away". To adhere is more like using one's center to work against the other's center so a big guy has advantage on a small guy. Martial arts is to train a smaller guy to get a bigger guy. A big guy can get a small guy anyway so don't need to train on martial arts. Following is different. There may not have touch, contact, or stick. Just play around with other's center, direction, movement, and even intent.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:41 am

The qualities as described definitely seem to me to be like how I strive to practice push hands.

I am leery of making it more sports like because that leads to gamification that requires additional rules and restrictions that are then gamed ad infinitum and eventually you wind up with something new that no longer serves the original purpose of cultivating particular skills.

I'm firmly opposed to the judofication. Cataloging and awarding points to limited techniques strips away so much of the art that happens in between the forms of movements, the blue notes of the art so to speak.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby Appledog on Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:52 am

oragami_itto wrote:I'm firmly opposed to the judofication. Cataloging and awarding points to limited techniques strips away so much of the art that happens in between the forms of movements, the blue notes of the art so to speak.


I'm just talking about how the art is taught. Along the way there are various games you can play. One of them is limited techniques. If you can't play this game, you're not at that level yet, but in such a case you couldn't really do push hands anyways. And within that (this) level of the game you can express a great range of skill.

Any other way you try to turn this into a competition will fail because you have have wildly different skill sets, people who are at various points in their progress, even using different methods, and different ideas of what push hands even is, clashing because they are not playing the same game. You need to standardize the actual game being played or there really isn't a point to turning it into a competition.

I could also say, just implement Chen Xin's 36 sicknesses as the only rule for "competition", or slightly modify it to allow techniques to end (terminate) in a clear application for the purposes of competition. If the truth is that people are not ready for that kind of competition yet, then I think that is the problem in the first place, therefore you need to approach the sort of ruleset expressed by Chen Xin's article in such a way, by limiting the ways in which it is acceptable to deviate from it.

As for blue notes I already mentioned having more than 32 allowed techniques and that's more than 8 or even 13, so, I don't think it is any less blue than the form.
Last edited by Appledog on Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby marvin8 on Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:06 am

Yeung wrote:I am trying to promote Adhering as a martial sport, and your comments or question will be very helpful in improving this sport:

The gerund adhering has the connotation of to stick, to join, to follow, and to believe. This is used in the same ways as boxing, wrestling, and grappling. Adhering is a unique development in Chinese Martial Arts in making use of the elastic components of the body to control the opponent which is expressed as the stick and follow techniques in Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguaquan, and Yongchunquan (Wing Chun Kung). The strategy of fight to control provided a safe environment for practitioners to determine who is better. From observation, most practitioners of the mentioned martial arts do not focus on the techniques in entering to adhering, as most of them learned pushing hand or sticking hand from a contacted position. The rules are simple, win by any controlled strike, take down, or submission; no score for trade off, no time limit in a restricted area, and disqualification for avoidance or uncontrolled techniques.

Can you clarify?

1. How do you determine when a player is using "elastic components?"

2. What is the definition of "controlled?" 'Adhere" with "elastic components" only? What about grabbing, trapping, etc. with concentric muscles?

3. Regarding "avoidance," does a competitor have to stick and follow after every attack or be disqualified?

Can you give examples (timestamps) of scores and disqualifications in the following wing chun competition?

Wing Chun TV Published on Feb 20, 2012 wrote:Ip Man Cup 2012 - Foshan ( China ) Wing Chun open competition.
Free fight - Wing Chun vs Sanda ( by sanda rules)
Video # 1:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEH3kzYCEDs
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:20 pm

The opponent that you are going to deal with may not be another Taiji person. You may have to use your Taiji skill to deal with a boxer, or a wrestler. If you are a Taiji person, you should not just stay within the area of "pushing". You should get into the areas of striking and wrestling.

For example, how do you test "4 oz against 1000 lb principle"?

- I'm going to throw 20 punches at you, if you can apply "4 oz against 1000 lb" in that period of time, you win that round. Otherwise, you lose that round.
- I'm trying to take you down within 1 minute, if you can apply "4 oz against 1000 lb" in that period of time, you win that round. Otherwise, you lose that round.

Now the question is how can you prove that you are only use 4 oz of force to deal with 1000 lb of force?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby Steve James on Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:40 pm

Now the question is how can you prove that you are only use 4 oz of force to deal with 1000 lb of force?


Four ounces is just a metaphorical ideal that can't be measured. Moreover, if you used 16 oz to deal with 1000 lbs, you'd see be great. :)

Afa testing, have two people (A + B) hold a single cotton thread. Each one takes turns trying to break the thread or pull it out of the opponent's hand.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:44 pm

Steve James wrote:
Now the question is how can you prove that you are only use 4 oz of force to deal with 1000 lb of force?


Four ounces is just a metaphorical ideal that can't be measured. Moreover, if you used 16 oz to deal with 1000 lbs, you'd see be great. :)

Afa testing, have two people (A + B) hold a single cotton thread. Each one takes turns trying to break the thread or pull it out of the opponent's hand.

Again, the opponent that you are going to deal with may not be another Taiji person. You may have to use your Taiji skill to deal with a boxer, or a wrestler.

This issue also exist in the WC school. A WC guy may only feel comfortable to fight against another WC guy.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby Steve James on Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:19 pm

Again, the opponent that you are going to deal with may not be another Taiji person. You may have to use your Taiji skill to deal with a boxer, or a wrestler.


For an equal competition, all that matters is that the rules are the same for everyone. If you're saying that a boxer could break the thread easily because his hands are so fast, or that the wrestler could easily pull the string away, that's fine. If "B" can't do it, he loses. If no one can do it, no one will win. That's a different question. I was just suggesting a way to test adhering ability.

Hey, it's possible to compare almost any two people's relative skill at a given task. The only question is how to define "winning" --if it's a competition, and no one says it has to be.
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