Adhering as a martial sport

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:15 pm

johnwang wrote:
Appledog wrote:Is this where we have ended up after all these years?

After all these years, RSF members still talk about "Should you push?" and not "How do you push?" Do people only interest in theory and not interest in application?


I'll do you one better, what is a push?
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:18 pm

Steve James wrote:Yeah, where and what one pushes is important. :)

In my last class we worked on "body squeeze" that you bite your foot behind your opponent's back foot (hard for him to escape) and squeeze his body side way to take him down.

If you use

1. Taiji "diagonal fly", you use your leading straight arm on your opponent's chest,
2. SC "body squeeze", you wrap your leading arm in front of your opponent's chest,

and push his body side way.

My guys have tried both methods. They like 2 > 1. There are many ways to push. Some pushs are more effective than the others.

Can you tell the body method difference between the SC "body squeeze" and Taiji "diagonal fly"?

Last edited by johnwang on Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:21 pm

oragami_itto wrote:what is a push?

You are still staying on the "what" level and not on the "how" level.

Will you feel boring that after these many years we are still talking about:

- What is "internal"?
- What is "push"?
- ...

and not about

- How to use "internal"?
- How to "push"?
- ...

If you push the

- center of an object, that object will move.
- end of an object, that object will spin.
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:42 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:what is a push?

If you push the

- center of an object, that object will move.
- end of an object, that object will spin.


Depends on the object, doesn't it? Push down on an upside down paper cup and it crumples.

That sort of describes the effect of the push though and not what it is, intrinsically.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:20 pm

oragami_itto wrote:That sort of describes the effect of the push though and not what it is, intrinsically.

I might be interested in "what" 50 years ago. Today I'm only interested in "how". I just can't stay in "what" all my life time. Soon or later RSF discussion will need to move into the "how" level.

You are right. I'm only interested in the "effect".
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:40 pm

The problem with "how" questions is that then people would actually have to start sweating and sparring and that sounds hard.. :-\
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby Trick on Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:24 pm

i would guess most here on the board did a lot of the "how" when they where young(younger 8-) and now many of us are fine-tuning the hows 8-)
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby marvin8 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:06 am

oragami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:what is a push?

If you push the

- center of an object, that object will move.
- end of an object, that object will spin.


Depends on the object, doesn't it? Push down on an upside down paper cup and it crumples.

If the object is a person, they often try to regain their equilibrium. As they rebound, one can position oneself to hit (or throw) and don't get hit (thrown)—gain an advantage.

If one tries throwing before pushing, the opponent can counter (e.g., hit, punch, kick, throw, defend) making the throw more difficult without the use of the opponent's rebound force. Push can be less of a commitment than throw.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:32 am

marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Depends on the object, doesn't it? Push down on an upside down paper cup and it crumples.

If the object is a person, they often try to regain their equilibrium. As they rebound, one can position oneself to hit (or throw) and don't get hit (thrown)—gain an advantage.

If one tries throwing before pushing, the opponent can counter (e.g., hit, punch, kick, throw, defend) making the throw more difficult without the use of the opponent's rebound force. Push can be less of a commitment than throw.


A person will attempt to recover from any attack.

If I put two fingers on your forehead and crumple you to the ground at my feet I have a range of options to deal with any aggression you may use to take the conflict further.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby marvin8 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:21 am

oragami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Depends on the object, doesn't it? Push down on an upside down paper cup and it crumples.

If the object is a person, they often try to regain their equilibrium. As they rebound, one can position oneself to hit (or throw) and don't get hit (thrown)—gain an advantage.

If one tries throwing before pushing, the opponent can counter (e.g., hit, punch, kick, throw, defend) making the throw more difficult without the use of the opponent's rebound force. Push can be less of a commitment than throw.


A person will attempt to recover from any attack.

If I put two fingers on your forehead and crumple you to the ground at my feet I have a range of options to deal with any aggression you may use to take the conflict further.

Any video of you or anyone else "put two fingers on your forehead" in a fight or competition?

While you are reaching with "two fingers," your opponent may be countering with an overhand right/left.

(My reply was directed more towards johnwang as to the usefulness of push.) Push can be part of a throw (entry, setup), rather than just a finishing move.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby Steve James on Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:29 am

How, where and when to push .... and why

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIWGvRaEvCg
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:45 am

marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:If the object is a person, they often try to regain their equilibrium. As they rebound, one can position oneself to hit (or throw) and don't get hit (thrown)—gain an advantage.

If one tries throwing before pushing, the opponent can counter (e.g., hit, punch, kick, throw, defend) making the throw more difficult without the use of the opponent's rebound force. Push can be less of a commitment than throw.


A person will attempt to recover from any attack.

If I put two fingers on your forehead and crumple you to the ground at my feet I have a range of options to deal with any aggression you may use to take the conflict further.

Any video of you or anyone else "put two fingers on your forehead" in a fight or competition?

Well it is well known that if it doesn't happen on camera it doesn't happen.
While you are reaching with "two fingers," your opponent may be countering with an overhand right/left.

I would suggest a different strategy at that point. I like the two fingers when somebody wants to get in your face to start a fight. Most natural responses to the touch just help it work to put them down, and it takes the wind out of their sails pretty quickly.

(My reply was directed more towards johnwang as to the usefulness of push.) Push can be part of a throw (entry, setup), rather than just a finishing move.


My point is that there are pushes and there are pushes, and without even having a starting definition or limitation as to what a push is makes the conversation all but useless.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby marvin8 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:01 am

@ 7:45, Eddie Wu demonstrates use pluck (push down), to set up lu.

Capitalize on the downward movement. . . . Most of the time it’s cai, lu. Instead of just lu, you create a reaction to use your technique on lu:”


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGZyiJartFk&t=7m45s

Cejudo pushes Dillashaw down. Then, kicks Dillashaw to the face as he rises:

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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby suckinlhbf on Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:15 am

and push his body side way


Even try strike instead of push? The strike I mean is using the explosive power of the body from relax to tight at the contact point.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:48 am

marvin8 wrote: Push can be part of a throw (entry, setup), rather than just a finishing move.

To set up a throw, pulling is more useful than pushing. You want to reduce the distance between you and your opponent.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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