Adhering as a martial sport

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby marvin8 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:26 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote: Push can be part of a throw (entry, setup), rather than just a finishing move.

To set up a throw, pulling is more useful than pushing. You want to reduce the distance between you and your opponent.

To use the opponent's force, it depends on the direction of the throw. To set up a forward throw, pushing is more useful than pulling.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:44 am

marvin8 wrote:To use the opponent's force, it depends on the direction of the throw. To set up a forward throw, pushing is more useful than pulling.

The problem is when you push, if your opponent yields, his yielding may lead you into the emptiness. You won't have that issue when you pull.

When you

- pull, you can handle both resisting and yielding.
- push, you can handle resisting, but you can't handle yielding.

Pull and resist.



Pull and yield.

Last edited by johnwang on Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:07 pm

Steve James wrote:How, where and when to push .... and why

The Judo and SC do have different flavor.

Judo:



SC:

Last edited by johnwang on Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:28 pm

marvin8 wrote:

This clip at 4.22 caught my attention. Do you think it's better for his left hand tiger mouth (space between thumb and index finger) to face his opponent's shoulder instead?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby Steve James on Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:11 pm

Well, it's a game, isn't it? It depends on whether I'm holding on or being held. It depends on how and whether the opponent is trying to attack me.

The idea of the "push pull" is universal in wrestling arts, imo; but I don't have experience with shuai jiao.

I know that, often, if you push someone, he will want to push back. Otoh, if someone pushes, he may/will tend to pull back when he does not meet resistance. If you pull on someone's collar, he will either go with it or resist.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby Yeung on Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:56 am

1. Adhering includes touch, connect, stick, and follow (zhān lián nián suí 沾连黏随).
2. 走手(zou shou)can be a fake strike or the skill of pulling back one’s hand faster than one’s strike, but this technique is making the assumption that the opponent will block any kind of strike. It is not very effective against the strategies of strike without blocking (bu xiao er da 不消而打), and neutralize with a strike (lian xiao dai da 连消带打).
3. Pushing and throwing are difficult in an open fighting situation, and one needs to protect his or her vital parts.
4. Adhering as a martial sport is not for those cannot protect themselves, or avoiding confrontation.
5. The avoidance of uncontrolled techniques is for safety reason, and these techniques can be find in various martial sports.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:22 pm

Yeung wrote:1. Adhering includes touch, connect, stick, and follow (zhān lián nián suí 沾连黏随).
2. 走手(zou shou)can be a fake strike or the skill of pulling back one’s hand faster than one’s strike, but this technique is making the assumption that the opponent will block any kind of strike. It is not very effective against the strategies of strike without blocking (bu xiao er da 不消而打), and neutralize with a strike (lian xiao dai da 连消带打).
3. Pushing and throwing are difficult in an open fighting situation, and one needs to protect his or her vital parts.
4. Adhering as a martial sport is not for those cannot protect themselves, or avoiding confrontation.
5. The avoidance of uncontrolled techniques is for safety reason, and these techniques can be find in various martial sports.

I understand your goal. Can you explain your path to get there? In your opinion, What's kind of partner drills will be needed to train this?
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby everything on Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:12 pm

American football has a lot of this.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby marvin8 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:55 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:To use the opponent's force, it depends on the direction of the throw. To set up a forward throw, pushing is more useful than pulling.

The problem is when you push, if your opponent yields, his yielding may lead you into the emptiness. You won't have that issue when you pull.

When you

- pull, you can handle both resisting and yielding.
- push, you can handle resisting, but you can't handle yielding.

Pull and resist.


No. "When you push," you can handle yielding. It is the same as in your above video. You finish one in the same direction as one is yielding (moving).

Kayla pushes down on opponent's right arm and opponent yields (moves back). Then, Kayla sticks, follows and finishes with a throw to the rear (Osoto Gari):
Image


Christian pushes, sticks, follows and finishes with arm drag in the direction of opponent's resistance:
Image

Master Chang gives forward pressure (push), sticks and follows opponent's yielding (backward movement) to finish him with a sweep:
Image


johnwang wrote:Pull and yield.


When you low kick, parry and reach for the opponent, one can counter with a straight right/left, kick, check your kick, etc.

"When you pull," your opponent can yield and redrag, elbow, chop, strike, etc.
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:35 am

marvin8 wrote:"When you push," you can handle yielding.

Image

When she pushes, he moves back (notice the space that she just creates between him and her). She then grabs and pulls him back again. If he moves back much more (like 2 feet), she won't be able to grab him again.

marvin8 wrote:"When you pull," your opponent can yield and redrag, elbow, chop, strike, etc.

Your yielding and redraging are opposite direction forces that contradict to each other.

IMO, both resisting and yielding are not the proper counters for dealing with circular dragging. Use your line to cut in front of your opponent's circle is the proper counter. This assume that your opponent has not controlled 100% of your momentum yet.

By using line to cut into circle, you can

- stop your opponent's circle running,
- control his leading leg, and
- take control back.

Image

Last edited by johnwang on Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby Trick on Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:39 pm

is that a she ? i agree its difficult to see
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby marvin8 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:47 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:"When you push," you can handle yielding.

Image

When she pushes, he moves back (notice the space that she just creates between him and her). She then grabs and pulls him back again. If he moves back much more (like 2 feet), she won't be able to grab him again.

Christian (he) pushes his opponent while remaining relaxed. The second time, he feints a push. This lures the opponent to bend over and push both hands forward, a common response. Borrowing the opponent's forward momentum, Christian simply pulls opponent down and goes behind him.

When you low kick in your video, you are further away and your opponent can move back to create more distance, a common response. Your low kick creates less opponent momentum than Christian's push. As a result, your pulling takes more effort to finish than Christian's.

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:"When you pull," your opponent can yield and redrag, elbow, chop, strike, etc.

Your yielding and redraging are opposite direction forces that contradict to each other.

No, they are the same "direction forces." You borrow opponent's pulling force to step forward, turn and counter.

johnwang wrote:IMO, both resisting and yielding are not the proper counters for dealing with circular dragging. Use your line to cut in front of your opponent's circle is the proper counter. This assume that your opponent has not controlled 100% of your momentum yet.

By using line to cut into circle, you can

- stop your opponent's circle running,
- control his leading leg, and
- take control back.

Image


Your video shows him yielding by stepping forward, borrowing opponent's pulling force. This is similar to what I said, "your opponent can yield and elbow."
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby Yeung on Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:23 am

johnwang wrote:I understand your goal. Can you explain your path to get there? In your opinion, What's kind of partner drills will be needed to train this?


This idea might be from stories about martial contest in an arena is to stop at a touch [to the vital point] (lèitái bǐwǔ diǎn dào jí zhǐ 擂台比武点到即止), or between great masters. But this is not nonviolence self-defense. Most of us probably have experienced in trying out all sort of attacking and defensing skills with our coaches or teachers, and found how proficient they were in controlling you and their strikes.

In my opinion, you just need to work out the safe entry techniques to grappling from your reservoir of martial skills, such as blindside entry with capture skills (qin na 擒拿). I am sure you can easily grab a fast strike to your face and apply your grappling skill; you probably train like this with your students.

The problem is to formalize an informal practice.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:16 am

marvin8 wrote:Your video shows him yielding by stepping forward, borrowing opponent's pulling force. This is similar to what I said, "your opponent can yield and elbow."

I assume we are still talking about the proper counters for circular dragging.

Here is the issue while yielding is not a good counter.

1. A pulls B toward the west direction.
2. B yields into A's pulling (B is also moving toward the west direction).
3. A uses wheeling step to move out of the B's moving path (A moves toward the north of B).
4. A adds more pulling on B and leads B into the emptiness (B will fall toward the north west direction).

The step 3 gives B the most problem. You may say that B can yield toward the north direction again. The logic here is that A knows he will use wheeling step according to his plan (A has train this plan over 1000 times). But B doesn't know that. A can change faster than B can because A is one step ahead of B.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:25 am

The shoulder stroke counter you describe uses yielding to be effective.

Yielding is a confusing term I guess. Stick, adhere, join, follow is more correct.
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