Adhering as a martial sport

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:36 am

oragami_itto wrote:The shoulder stroke counter you describe uses yielding to be effective.

Yielding is a confusing term I guess. Stick, adhere, join, follow is more correct.

I assume when people talk about yielding, they are talking about to "move into the same direction as his opponent is moving". In that clip, he opponent drag him toward the north west direction. He shoulder strike toward the north east direction.

If your girlfriend wants to go to the Macy's store and you take her to the Dollar Tree store, that's not yielding by definition.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby marvin8 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:11 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Your video shows him yielding by stepping forward, borrowing opponent's pulling force. This is similar to what I said, "your opponent can yield and elbow."

I assume we are still talking about the proper counters for circular dragging.

Here is the issue while yielding is not a good counter.


1. A pulls B toward the west direction.
2. B yields into A's pulling (B is also moving toward the west direction).
3. A uses wheeling step to move out of the B's moving path (A moves toward the north of B).
4. A adds more pulling on B and leads B into the emptiness (B will fall toward the north west direction).

The step 3 gives B the most problem. You may say that B can yield toward the north direction again. The logic here is that A knows he will use wheeling step according to his plan (A has train this plan over 1000 times). But B doesn't know that. A can change faster than B can because A is one step ahead of B.

We were talking about your statement, "When you push, you can't handle yielding." I gave multiple examples (clips) of a "push handling yielding." Kayla and Master Chang successfully pushed while the opponent yielded.

I assume you posted the "kao4" video as an example of "a good counter." In your video, is he effectively doing a shoulder bump/push (yielding)? If so, yielding is "a good counter."

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:

Your video shows him yielding by stepping forward, borrowing opponent's pulling force. This is similar to what I said, "your opponent can yield and elbow."
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:13 am

We need to define the term "yield".

If your opponent drags you toward the west direction and you move into the

- west direction, that's yielding.
- east direction, that's resisting.
- north, south, north west, south west direction, that's not yielding (I call this 切 (Qie) cutting - cut into a new direction).
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby marvin8 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:35 am

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:The shoulder stroke counter you describe uses yielding to be effective.

Yielding is a confusing term I guess. Stick, adhere, join, follow is more correct.

I assume when people talk about yielding, they are talking about to "move into the same direction as his opponent is moving". In that clip, he opponent drag him toward the north west direction. He shoulder strike toward the north east direction.

"When people talk about yielding (against an arm drag), they are talking about to 'move into the same direction as his opponent is moving (push to his opponent's pull).'"

His "shoulder strike" is either a push or pull. If it is a push, it is yielding to his opponent's pull. A throw is either a front or rear throw, whether it is to a corner or not. Pull is to push, as yin is to yang.
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:09 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:The shoulder stroke counter you describe uses yielding to be effective.

Yielding is a confusing term I guess. Stick, adhere, join, follow is more correct.

I assume when people talk about yielding, they are talking about to "move into the same direction as his opponent is moving". In that clip, he opponent drag him toward the north west direction. He shoulder strike toward the north east direction.


That's why I don't like the term yielding, it's confusing but useful for beginners to get a base understanding in my opinion.

Following is a better one word, but not following for followings sale, following to lead. I.e. your wife wants to go shopping at Macy's and you get in the car and start driving but point out the sales at Dollar Tree and drive her there instead.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:13 pm

marvin8 wrote:His "shoulder strike" is either a push or pull. If it is a push, it is yielding to his opponent's pull.

When I pull you toward the west direction and my body is moving toward the north direction, if you want to shoulder strike me toward the north direction, you have to resist my west direction pulling first before you can apply the north direction force. IMO, that's against the definition of yielding.

This is why the shaking force is 100% against the yielding force. When your opponent shakes you, it's very difficult to cut your force into a new direction.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:26 pm

oragami_itto wrote:That's why I don't like the term yielding, it's confusing but useful for beginners to get a base understanding in my opinion.

Agree that we have to define this term so we can all agree with.

I have difficulty to explain to marvin8 that if I use shaking force on him toward the "west" direction, it's difficult for him to apply the "north" direction force on me. Even if he can do that, that's not yielding. That's resisting and cutting instead.
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Re: Adhering as a martial sport

Postby yeniseri on Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:03 pm

Steve James wrote:
Now the question is how can you prove that you are only use 4 oz of force to deal with 1000 lb of force?


Four ounces is just a metaphorical ideal that can't be measured. Moreover, if you used 16 oz to deal with 1000 lbs, you'd see be great. :)

Afa testing, have two people (A + B) hold a single cotton thread. Each one takes turns trying to break the thread or pull it out of the opponent's hand.


Actually, it is not per my view.
The principle is that the one touched (if trained well) uses that minimal (sensing and other external attributes) touch to discern, act and redistribute said touch to an advantageous position and initiaite a response beased on penglujiankao (or shuai) aspect to defeat the opponent or make him think twiceon attempting to grab, hold or otherwise immobilize the other.

Adheing is not a martial sport but a main principle akin to tuishou/roushou, where you maintian that contact to use it against the opponent.
Alot of stuff I have forgotten over the decades but anyone skilled in liuhebafa-6 combinations/8 methods (the concept/training.principle as opposed the the physical art) would realize that it exists in all CMA but today rarely used and is considered 'secret' because no one is capable to teach and are ignorant of it, even myself ??? The caliber of that teaching is practically gone. I realize that some xinyi, bajiquan,etc have it as part of their jibengong but it is few and far between! Just sayin..
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