Definition of yielding

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Definition of yielding

Postby Steve James on Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:42 pm

Do you agree that yielding to the push is easy. Yielding to the pull (especial the quick downward shaking) is difficult?


Well, neither is "easy," or anyone could do it. :) But, I think "yielding" is not the tcc way to deal with a pull. The proper term, imho, would be "following." For example, using "kao/shoulder" is usually a result of following, but it is still "yielding" because it is not resisting.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:49 pm

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:Yielding to an opponent pushing your shoulders on the front can be done several ways,

Do you agree that yielding to the push is easy. Yielding to the pull (especial the quick downward shaking) is difficult?


As with other counters, one should yield, stick and follow at the same time as the pull (borrowing opponent's force). More clips of "yielding to the pull," in addition to the others already posted:

Image

Image

Opponent's two hands control one, leaving one's other hand to strike:
Image

Do you disagree with the video you posted?
Image
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:37 pm

Steve James wrote:
johnwang wrote:Do you agree that yielding to the push is easy. Yielding to the pull (especial the quick downward shaking) is difficult?


Well, neither is "easy," or anyone could do it. :) But, I think "yielding" is not the tcc way to deal with a pull. The proper term, imho, would be "following." For example, using "kao/shoulder" is usually a result of following, but it is still "yielding" because it is not resisting.

Another "yielding to the pull" video.

At :38, “Your partner grabs your right arm and begins to pull you forward. So, you step forward with your right foot to the inside of your partner’s stance. . . ."

Taiji Zen on Aug 17, 2017 wrote:Taken from Taiji Zen's Online Academy. This short clip came from the Kinetic Application video for Kào (靠), shoulder striking energy.

Kào (靠) is the last of the eight energies in Tai Chi Chuan. It means "to lean" literally, and implies a strike with the shoulder or other parts of the torso. It is a powerful energy as can be seen from the clip

For the Kinetic Application of Kào 靠, your main goal is to feel what it’s like to drive the shoulder with the body’s coordination behind it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E7GL0bq_xk
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby johnwang on Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:10 pm

How will you be able to yield if your opponent shakes you - a fast pull followed by a fast push?

At 0.08 - 0.10.

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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby johnwang on Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:16 pm

I don't understand this clip. Why did he put his leg in front of his opponent instead of behind his opponent?

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:50 pm

johnwang wrote:I don't understand this clip. Why did he put his leg in front of his opponent instead of behind his opponent?



Because he doesn't need to for that technique. I actually use that all the time in a fixed-step matched stance.

Sort of like the first application shown here:

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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby johnwang on Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:02 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:I don't understand this clip. Why did he put his leg in front of his opponent instead of behind his opponent?



Because he doesn't need to for that technique. I actually use that all the time in a fixed-step matched stance.

He gives his opponent an opportunity to sweep his leading leg.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:09 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:I don't understand this clip. Why did he put his leg in front of his opponent instead of behind his opponent?



Because he doesn't need to for that technique. I actually use that all the time in a fixed-step matched stance.

He gives his opponent an opportunity to sweep his leading leg.


Contextually, the opponent has all of his weight on that front leg so to use it to sweep he'd first have to shift his weight back, which just helps the technique which is already in progress work better
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby johnwang on Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:45 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Contextually, the opponent has all of his weight on that front leg so to use it to sweep he'd first have to shift his weight back, which just helps the technique which is already in progress work better

When white pulls black's right arm, white's weigh is on his right back leg. White's left leading leg is free to apply scoop kick.

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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby Bao on Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:19 am

johnwang wrote:When white pulls black's right arm, white's weigh is on his right back leg. White's left leading leg is free to apply scoop kick.


Agree. But maybe mind-reading is a part of the course so you can foresee that the opponent just will stand there mindlessly like a statue and not move?
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:54 am

I'd like to see somebody kick from that position and what kind of power they can have on it.
WITHOUT shifting back fully to the rear leg, of course, because that works for the other technique. :D
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby windwalker on Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:47 am

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Contextually, the opponent has all of his weight on that front leg so to use it to sweep he'd first have to shift his weight back, which just helps the technique which is already in progress work better

When white pulls black's right arm, white's weigh is on his right back leg. White's left leading leg is free to apply scoop kick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E7GL0b ... e=youtu.be]


You often talk about working from single-leg stances, this may be a confusion when looking at the clip.

Neither one of them are committed to either the front or rear legs, it could be said they are biased towards one leg depending on what they're doing.

70/30---60/40 ect.

Understanding it's a demo, in reality stepping in that deep, or allowing one to step in so deep means that one is very confident in what they're doing or does not understand what they're doing
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby charles on Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:08 am

johnwang wrote:How will you be able to yield if your opponent shakes you - a fast pull followed by a fast push?


You'd have to move/change faster or at the same pace as the technique(s) are applied. Not easy to do.

I don't understand this clip. Why did he put his leg in front of his opponent instead of behind his opponent?


The technique that he is applying, at least as I learned it, is not "kao". He is too far away from his opponent to issue kao. Instead, what he is showing is mostly a push with his arm. As a throw, it would be more effective if his leg was behind his opponent's leg. As shown, it wouldn't likely work on a non-cooperative partner. As an aside, as instructed in the video, to have "white" pull down on "black's" arm, if done properly, with the white's hand at black's elbow, that hand is meant to control black's elbow to specifically prevent black from doing what is shown in the video. White did not do that. What the video shows is identically the da lu exercise in Chen style Taijiquan, but neither is performing it as the exercise is intended to be performed - that is, neither is training what the exercise exists to be trained in that exercise.

One of the standard things trained in that exercise, in Chen style, is to use the side/back of the shoulder to strike the opponent in the middle of the chest. The direction of the strike is 45 degrees from the opponent's stance, along a weak direction of his stance. It isn't a push: it is a hard, abrupt strike. Another thing that it can be used to train is to "jam" the opponent if he is doing exactly what "white" is doing in the video - not controlling the elbow. The arm being pulled - in this case, black's arm - isn't passively pulled. Instead it is driven down/forward. If the elbow isn't being controlled, one can direct that downward action between the opponent's (white's) legs towards his crotch. If he (white) continues to hang one to the arm, it unbalances him, unless he steps or otherwise controls the direction of black's arms. Black should be stepping very close to white's forward leg: he should, if he wishes, be able to take out white's forward leg with the back of his knee, coordinated with actions directed above at white's arms or torso.

In short, the video shows more or less correct choreography, minus black leaning forward when pulled, but is without the substance that should be there for the exercise to be of value.

Kao, as I was taught it, is a very short, very sharp strike with any part of the body - front of shoulder, back of shoulder, side of shoulder, front of chest, back, forearm, hip, shin... It is done from very close range, if not from touching.


oragami_itto wrote:Sort of like the first application shown here:



This isn't kao either, nor does the video state that it is. One could put kao into it, much as one can in many applications, but what he is demonstrating is splitting, used as a throw.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby Steve James on Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:31 am

Kao, as I was taught it, is a very short, very sharp strike with any part of the body - front of shoulder, back of shoulder, side of shoulder, front of chest, back, forearm, hip, shin... It is done from very close range, if not from touching.


Yeah, "kao" as I was taught, is specifically a "short strike" technique. However, "kao" is also an "energy" and a direction (I usually say "vector"). I.e., just using the shoulder or back is not necessarily using kao.

Why? As every internet tcc theoretician knows, all the energies are/can be contained in every movement. So, we come to the second picture, which seems to show an application of Slant Flying. As you state yourself, "One could put kao into it...". But, imo, he is putting kao energy into it. In fact, if someone asked me which of the 13 jin is used in Slant Flying, my first choice would be "kao."

I agree that in the video, the practitioner isn't doing the classical application of kao, but he is using kao for the classical reason. I.e., specifically as a counter to "pull down." John asked what would happen (how would one yield) if the opponent jerked or shook one's arm quickly. I said the classical response would be kao. If I follow the opponent, he pulls me into him. No matter how fast, it is he who has to change direction.

Btw, I was taught that it is not necessary, or good practice, to yield when one doesn't have to; and, if one can't attack, one will lose eventually. However, suppose the guy who grabs you is 3x stronger than you are? That's when you'll need your tcc :).
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:21 am

charles wrote:
johnwang wrote:How will you be able to yield if your opponent shakes you - a fast pull followed by a fast push?


oragami_itto wrote:Sort of like the first application shown here:



This isn't kao either, nor does the video state that it is. One could put kao into it, much as one can in many applications, but what he is demonstrating is splitting, used as a throw.


That's why I said "sort of", to give you an idea of the relative body positions, the way I use it it's kao first. He's being much gentler on contact than I would in actual application.

Splitting, to me, would indicate an opposing force to the pressure up top, as in the classical slant flying where you step behind their forward leg. I don't see that in this video.
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