Definition of yielding

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Definition of yielding

Postby everything on Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:39 am

If it's a pull on the neck to a punch or knee... dunno
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby charles on Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:41 am

oragami_itto wrote:Splitting, to me, would indicate an opposing force to the pressure up top, as in the classical slant flying where you step behind their forward leg. I don't see that in this video.


In most of the applications he shows, he lifts the opponent's leg, pulling in one direction, while pushing forward/to the side with his other arm: two applied forces in different directions. In certain of the applications, he adds placing his foot to trap the opponent's far foot, creating a pivot point for the "couple".
Last edited by charles on Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:31 am

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Splitting, to me, would indicate an opposing force to the pressure up top, as in the classical slant flying where you step behind their forward leg. I don't see that in this video.


In most of the applications he shows, he lifts the opponent's leg, pulling in one direction, while pushing forward/to the side with his other arm: two applied forces in different directions. In certain of the applications, he adds placing his foot to trap the opponent's far foot, creating a pivot point for the "couple".


In most, certain, and some, I agree. He's using the opposing forces. In the first one, the only one I'm talking about, he does not. He (1) steps past the rear foot but doesn't make contact with the opponent's foot. He (2)unbalances the student essentially with peng using the student's own rear weighted leg as a pivot. As (3) the student's forward leg lifts, he grabs it to enhance the throw, which yes is arbuably split, but it's not the prime mover of the technique, and not the part of the movement that I'm talking about, it's just an enhancement.

What I'm saying is I use that same basic idea all the time in fixed step. Right feet forward and lined up parallel heel to toe. When I get my right arm on their right ribs, palm facing me, little kao through the arm aimed above and to my left of their left leg, follow with peng as desired. Generally I'm not going to be grabbing the leg doing push hands, admittedly.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby marvin8 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:11 pm

johnwang wrote:How will you be able to yield if your opponent shakes you - a fast pull followed by a fast push?

At 0.08 - 0.10.

Reaching before grip, kick to groin/knee, uppercut, etc. In self-defense, try to gain an advantage by controlling the distance, angle, etc. It's not a wrestling/grip contest.

After grip, possibly one way is the same way: follow/yield with kao. Do not face square, but with shoulders perpendicular to the weak angle.

Attacker has grip on one side: right upper arm and right lapel, left side is free:
Image

marvin8 wrote:. . . with shoulders perpendicular to the weak angle. Then, he throws the opponent backwards by stepping and yielding (pushing) into the weak angle.

If the opponent was pulling and he pulled to throw the opponent forwards, he would be resisting:
Image
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:15 pm

marvin8 wrote:Attacker has grip on one side: right upper arm and right lapel, left side is free:
Image


I think the real lesson there is, if he's got 50 pounds on you, don't let him grab your jacket.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby everything on Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:37 pm

^^^
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby johnwang on Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:42 pm

marvin8 wrote:Image

Thanks for making this clip. Do you think the "抖(Dou) – Shaking" principle is also used in the Taiji system?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby charles on Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:22 pm

johnwang wrote:Do you think the "抖(Dou) – Shaking" principle is also used in the Taiji system?


In Chen Taijiquan it is trained explicitly. However when used it is much more abrupt than what is shown in the clip.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby johnwang on Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:20 am

charles wrote:In Chen Taijiquan it is trained explicitly. However when used it is much more abrupt than what is shown in the clip.

You can apply "抖(Dou) – Shaking" in

- short distance to interrupt your opponent's power generation. Most of the time you use this in defense.
- longer distance to move your opponent's body to set up something else. Most of the time you use this in offense.



The yielding (adhering, stick, join, follow) has difficulty to deal with sharp pulling. It's also difficult (if not impossible) to yield into this kind of pulling "撒(Sa) – Casting".

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby everything on Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:50 am

I believe they changed the rules in judo to require attacking because neutralizing is relatively easier in this context.

Not sure if they use shaking but no idea why they wouldn't.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby johnwang on Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:54 am

everything wrote:Not sure if they use shaking but no idea why they wouldn't.

- The Taiji principle is "If you don't move, I won't move."
- The shaking principle is "If you don't want to move, I'll force you to move in such a fast speed that you won't feel comfortable".
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:46 pm

A little late to the party. IMO, yielding should never be only defensive and passive -- or pure Yin. Any good TCMAists should have the qualities of both Yin and Yang present simultaneously in their movements so that as they yield, they are also attacking the opponent.

It's all about balance.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:47 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Image

Thanks for making this clip. Do you think the "抖(Dou) – Shaking" principle is also used in the Taiji system?


marvin8, What software did you use to make this clip?
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby marvin8 on Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:38 am

oragami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Image

Thanks for making this clip. Do you think the "抖(Dou) – Shaking" principle is also used in the Taiji system?


marvin8, What software did you use to make this clip?

Gom Player to capture frames (Advanced Screen Capture), then Photoshop to load them and create the gif.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:47 am

Image

.
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