Definition of yielding

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Definition of yielding

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:27 am

This kind of gif clip is very suitable for online discussion. We don't have to watch the whole movie clip. It's better than the clip that I made by repeating 3 or 4 times. Glad to find a better way to do thing.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:02 pm

Just trying to get some context.

So “Yielding” (撤走 Chezou), according to tjq/ cima, is accomplished by using the learned/ trained skill/ technique called 隨 sui.

The OP is talking about 顺 Shun (moving with, obeying) the opponent’s actions. Which is a low level skill/ tactic, meaning easier to learn and employ, when compared to the lifelong learning skill of Sui.

I think my sumo gif is almost an example of Sui, only it’s also sort of taking advantage of a situation that’s already known, or played out countless times. It’s not using Sui in response to a completely random attack.



.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby marvin8 on Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:56 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Image

.

^^^^ Yes, use 0 oz to move 450 lbs. Is it better to yield (borrow opponent's force) or resist? Would you teach a 115 lb woman to resist against a 450 lb man or use 0 oz to move 450 lbs (borrow opponent's force)? Which is better no damage or big damage?

johnwang wrote:Since that day, the "head on collusion" became a very important part of my daily training.

Image


johnwang wrote:Glad to find a better way to do thing.

Image
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:16 pm

斯技旁門甚多。雖勢有區別。概不外壯欺弱。慢讓快耳。有力打無力。手慢讓手快。是皆先天自然之能。非闗學力而有也。察四兩撥千斤之句。顯非力勝。觀耄耋禦衆之形。快何能為。

“There are many other schools of martial arts besides this one. Although the postures are different between them, they generally do not go beyond the strong bullying the weak and the slow yielding [rang] to the fast. The strong beating the weak and the slow submitting [rang] to the fast are both a matter of inherent natural ability and bear no relation to skill that is learned. Examine the phrase “four ounces moves a thousand pounds”, which is clearly not a victory obtained through strength. Or consider the sight of an old man repelling a group, which could not come from an aggressive speed.” ~ https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... -classics/

Note that 讓 Rang (submitting) is not a good thing in internal Chinese arts.

.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby marvin8 on Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:40 pm

johnwang wrote:
charles wrote:In Chen Taijiquan it is trained explicitly. However when used it is much more abrupt than what is shown in the clip.

You can apply "抖(Dou) – Shaking" in

- short distance to interrupt your opponent's power generation. Most of the time you use this in defense.
- longer distance to move your opponent's body to set up something else. Most of the time you use this in offense.


Listen, yield, stick, follow, finish, etc.

Before grip: use your force to collide with my kick to groin/knee, uppercut/straight punch to face, parry your force to enter side door and finish, etc.

After grip (your two hands are tied up, mine are free, not grappling, no rules): when you straighten your arms (push), I help (follow) by twisting and pushing up your elbows; you bend your arms (pull), I help by judo chop with one hand and pull your elbow with the other; you step back, I help by pushing you back; you step forward, I pull (or follow) you forward (extend you), etc.

Image

Image

Image

White Crane Spreads Wings:
Image

Starting at 1:22:
Kajukenbo United on Jul 16, 2018 wrote:
Dr. Larry Carter demonstrates a sequence of self defense techniques to counter a double lapel grab:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqEvWFGk6-g&t=1m22s


Starting at 1:59:
East Coast Combat Hapkido on Apr 15, 2015 wrote:
http://www.eastcoastcombathapkido.com. Ever wonder how to disengage from someone who has you by the lapels? A simple and effective way to defend against a larger person in a two-handed lapel grab situation using Hapkido Principles that allows for the quick use of your hands and fists explosively:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMnPHNT7XaY&t=1m59s

johnwang wrote:The yielding (adhering, stick, join, follow) has difficulty to deal with sharp pulling. It's also difficult (if not impossible) to yield into this kind of pulling "撒(Sa) – Casting".



As you reach to grab, I step, punch, kick, grip fight, etc. After you grab, I step as you step to better my position. As you shake, I shake. "Shaking" is not illegal nor a dominant technique (most grip fight) in high level judo competition.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby cloudz on Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:04 am

personally i think it's better to try to understand "yield" in it's English meaning and see how it applies to what one does.
trying to map it directly to Chinese terminology isn't really necessary and just confuses things and adds unecessary complexities.

of course 'yielding' is encompassed comfortably within the four skills of tui shou however this is not to say that a wider and broader treatment of yielding; as it applies to other parts of 'the fight' are not also useful and usable.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby Steve James on Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:57 am

personally i think it's better to try to understand "yield" in it's English meaning and see how it applies to what one does.


I agree. Neither "yield" nor any Chinese equivalent will have many associations. Yield means more than one thing, and there are many ways to yield.v

The sumo clip is one perspective. It answers the question how one can use yielding, but it's on a raised stage. Some would argue that if it were a real fight or in a ring, the big guy would just come back. That's a "what if" though. For ex., people might ask "what good is a push?" Depends. "What if" they're in a room with concrete walls? What would happen to the big guy then?

Actually, the "get out of the way" idea was a key part of the way I was taught. The hard parts are judging of speed and direction, and then not losing contact so that one can follow. I think it was key because it is something that doesn't depend at all on the size or strength of the opponent. Reminds me of the film Prometheus when a gigantic spaceship is falling ... here's the clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdZXlMl1xG4

Just run to the side. Duh. You don't have to be Usain Bolt. Anybody could do it, and it's a concept that doesn't need translation into different languages.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:01 am

Generally, humans don’t just fall like trees (unless unconscious). They have the ability to adapt and change. So Sui is the ability to be there, as the intended target, but then move at the last second, and the opponent cannot change course, or adapt to the new situation. It’s a skill that becomes better with the increasing internal cultivation that’s built into the internal martial arts, which imparts a greater capacity to feel intent. A basic idea of it is in the game where two people hold out their palms, one person holds palms facing up and is the slapper, the other palms down and tries to pull his hands away (using Sui) before they get slapped.
My teacher talks about the biggest problem with push hands is that it conditions people to only learn Sui (and sticking etc) after contact is already made. Where it needs to be a skill that is being used before contact.

.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby windwalker on Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:24 am

cloudz wrote:personally i think it's better to try to understand "yield" in it's English meaning and see how it applies to what one does.
trying to map it directly to Chinese terminology isn't really necessary and just confuses things and adds unecessary complexities.

of course 'yielding' is encompassed comfortably within the four skills of tui shou however this is not to say that a wider and broader treatment of yielding; as it applies to other parts of 'the fight' are not also useful and usable.


IME I've never heard of it being expressed as "yielding"
Do agree that using this as an english equivalent can be misleading and confusing.

The terminology used by those I was taught by in their native tongue, was "hua" to dissolve/neutralize the force.
There are many ways to do this.
Yielding ie, giving up space might be one way but not the preferred method.

Being able to "hua" can be done at the point of contact with no movement allowing one to maintain their space while the other sensing
they've encountered emptiness is forced to change.. This is called transformation.

Its at this transition point, that the other is very vulnerable either adding 4oz or subtracting it...
It happen very quick in application if done correctly there is no real recovery from it.

Most people "training" this through ph IMO get the wrong idea feeling they will have time to sense and adjust
to the change..... Ideally it happens at first contact, sometime even before contact is made.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby Subitai on Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:34 am

I took a break from getting ready for fishing season to check the forums, then saw this....To answer John, for me "the way into danger is the way out"

In general I can make this principle work most of the time but (Nothing is ever 100%) Anyway a key to what I'm talking about isn't only just yielding to when the other guys moves 1st. Which does work btw. But in general, just waiting to yield... is what JohnWang doesn't like (I presume it's a pet peeve of his) :D Anyway, another way to apply this concept(other than allowing them to issue 1st), is you can attack or give pressure of some type and then when they react...you counter his counter.


Assuming John's Peeve, he's obviously put some thought into it. So when it comes to his double lapel grab and shaking...the 1st thing I would say is: "to know where he is strong, is to know where he is weak" . Also, what JohnWang posted is kind of a trap and I think he knows that...he's just looking at responses and he's gotta be laughing.

John is pretty high level for what he does and when he presents a double lapel grab, directly at his students chest (center) where he has access to it...therefore he can read very quickly all the changes...its a trap for most people who don't know how to get him to remove it...WITHOUT RESORTING TO STRIKING HIM. I can be done but you have to understand where he's strong to attack where he is weak.

Also, some guys had posted counters (gifs). In marvin8 last post... I'd bet my boat that the ones with the guy in the "red x pattern gi" wouldn't work on someone like John.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby johnwang on Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:41 pm

Subitai wrote: In marvin8 last post... I'd bet my boat that the ones with the guy in the "red x pattern gi" wouldn't work on someone like John.

White Crane Spreads Wings:
Image

I'll pay anybody $1,000 if he can break my grips by this method. I'll only charge $10 if he fails. ;D

The reason this method won't work because it doesn't generate enough "tearing" power. Sometime even if you use your entire body to tear, you may still not be able to break your opponent's monster grip.

In the following clip, you can see the full body power is used.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby Steve James on Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:55 pm

John, I think you're right about it when it comes to you or someone with your strength and skill. But, it could work on someone unskilled or unprepared. Usually, when someone says, "Let me put this hold on you, and see if you can get out," it's prudent to believe that it won't be easy.

Afa White Crane Spreads Wings, imo, it works better if the opponent has grabbed one's arms or shoulders, rather than one's clothing. Though, I tend to agree with those who argue that if the opponent grabs you, and leaves your arms (and legs) free, you should use them. For example, there seems to be an opportunity for a nice elbow, among other things.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby johnwang on Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:30 pm

The clothes grabbing can make "pushing" and "yielding" principles much more complicate. This is why I don't like the term "push". If I grab on your clothes, when you push me, you are not going to push me away. Also when I shake you, your yielding will not be easy.

IMO, both Taiji principles should be tested not only inside the PH game. It should also be tested outside of the PH game.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby marvin8 on Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:04 am

Subitai wrote: ...the 1st thing I would say is: "to know where he is strong, is to know where he is weak" .

...WITHOUT RESORTING TO STRIKING HIM.

"john is weak" where everyone else is: when his arms are pulled sideways, body misaligned or can't change with opponent's movements (e.g., circle, side steps). The double lapel grip is a legal, known grip in judo competition with it's strengths and weaknesses. One weakness is loss of control of the opponent's two arms.

johnwang wrote:The reason this method won't work because it doesn't generate enough "tearing" power. Sometime even if you use your entire body to tear, you may still not be able to break your opponent's monster grip.

In the following clip, you can see the full body power is used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLgPpWDoYZs

But . . . that is a TV show where the hero usually wins. In real-life Olympic competition, the double lapel grip is broken by two hands against one. Also, the elbow can be bent (e.g., judo chop or limb destruction) and one can be thrown.

Steve James wrote:Afa White Crane Spreads Wings, imo, it works better if the opponent has grabbed one's arms or shoulders, rather than one's clothing. Though, I tend to agree with those who argue that if the opponent grabs you, and leaves your arms (and legs) free, you should use them. For example, there seems to be an opportunity for a nice elbow, among other things.

Single leg takedown attempt. johnwang reacts by leaning forward, pushing and double stiff arming:
johnwang wrote:Image

More counters to stiff arms.

Left elbow connected to the hip, grip underneath opponent’s elbow, single pivot & rotate into Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi:
Image

Can't reach from front (stiff arms). So, push, side step (hua), feint Sasae, pull into Osoto gari:
Image

Push, pull (rock, hua) opponent forward into hip technique:
Image

Push, side step (hua), pull into Hiza garuma:
Image

Push, side step (hua), pull into shoulder throw:
Image
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby cloudz on Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:49 am

D_Glenn wrote:Generally, humans don’t just fall like trees (unless unconscious). They have the ability to adapt and change. So Sui is the ability to be there, as the intended target, but then move at the last second, and the opponent cannot change course, or adapt to the new situation. It’s a skill that becomes better with the increasing internal cultivation that’s built into the internal martial arts, which imparts a greater capacity to feel intent. A basic idea of it is in the game where two people hold out their palms, one person holds palms facing up and is the slapper, the other palms down and tries to pull his hands away (using Sui) before they get slapped.
My teacher talks about the biggest problem with push hands is that it conditions people to only learn Sui (and sticking etc) after contact is already made. Where it needs to be a skill that is being used before contact.

.


yea,

I recall some of your posts about sensitivity.... in the end that's what classical tui shou (essentially and ultimately) is really about for me.
and it should lead into and tie in with undertsanding energy.

all senses involved, contact, no contact. same, same.
the skills are a means to an end martially.

i can't believe it even needs saying, but i can get why it was said.
of course the point is to counter, i mean what else.
none of these are running away arts, though that's a must too.
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